Simple software manifesto
"Are we simple yet?"
https://arewesimpleyet.org/

@torresjrjr >Simple software
>Uses C

@G117CH
What's your point?

@torresjrjr I don't understand how this manifesto supports either simple or sustainable software. C is not appropriate for building large and complex systems due to its complex and bug-prone memory management methodology, and this manifesto describes a subset of C that would be even more complex.

C doesn't even support Unicode properly on many implementations, which is one of the tenants of the said manifesto. I just don't get how the items listed are supportive of simple or sustainable software.

@G117CH
> complex and bug-prone memory management
> doesn't support Unicode

The author of the manifesto holds these same opinions, and in fact made his own programming language in the spirit of C which addresses these issues. It might interest you.

https://harelang.org/
@hare

I've contributed to Hare myself and enjoy the language.

@torresjrjr @hare Thank you. Context was lacking on my end. I will gladly look into it. What is your/the author's (if you know) opinion of Rust?

@G117CH
Of the author's opinions:
- https://drewdevault.com/2019/03/25/Rust-is-not-a-good-C-replacement.html

Also of interest:
- https://drewdevault.com/2017/01/30/Lessons-to-learn-from-C.html
- https://drewdevault.com/2017/03/15/How-I-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-C.html

- https://harelang.org/blog/2021-02-09-hare-advances-on-c/
- https://harelang.org/blog/2022-05-02-what-is-hares-scope/
- https://harelang.org/blog/2022-04-25-announcing-hare/

@G117CH
I myself kinda hate Rust haha. Or more so the Rust ecosystem. But I do respect it's primary points of memory safety, etc.

@torresjrjr See, I've been finding myself enamoured of Cargo. One of the things I hate most about C/C++ is makefiles when I start wanting to use external libraries. Pulling in crates is intoxicatingly easy.

@G117CH
> intoxicatingly easy
Precisely where the poison lies. Copying the npm/.node_modules monster is a terrible idea. Your point about C/C++ external libraries is also true. Which is why I like Hare's sensible and user-friendly inbetween.

=> https://harelang.org/tutorials/libraries/

@torresjrjr Now that's a criticism that's totally valid! I should have been thinking about that a bit more with the recent faker.js incident, etc.

There are groups working to make it better, even Google (yeah, I know) is working on an Assured Software Chain to prevent it from happening again, but it will always be one less time the developer has his hands on the code before he uses it. It's a hard trade-off between efficient development and safety.

I've been developing since Borland C++ 3 on Dos, and I agree things are far too complex and break way too often, but I've also had to face the fact that the ecosystem no longer allows one developer to do most meaningful work like it did when I got in the business.

I look forward to reading up on your and your friend's work on this language, but I wonder how adoption will work out.

@G117CH
I'd argue philosophically that npm as a concept is flawed, and the lack of this insight is what causes all these issues in the first place.

Also, I don't buy a lot of this "forced upon by the world ecosystem complexity". I see a large lack of due diligence out there. But yes, the outside world exists, and we have to deal with it :D.

> I wonder how adoption will work out.

World domination is not a priority for the Hare project. Upstream Hare deliberately does not support non-libre OSs. It's a principled language, and if others happen to find value in it, that's great. It's not meant to replace anything. Languages serve different purposes and niches, including Rust.