vnarek @vnarek@qoto.org

@freemo Okay this is interesting, but then if those courses would be easier wouldn't it be easier to just stay on welfare indefinitely? I would like to learn to paint, then play some instrument, then learn to manage teams, but still not using those acquired skills for generating profit.

@freemo @adi_k I am doing my bachelor degree right know. It is hard, but still really interesting. So now I don't have first hand experience with post-grad education.

Maybe I will change my reasoning when I start my post-grad education.

@freemo @adi_k Do you believe in the capacity of learning? Some people are just better at studying. So for them it is easier than day to day work of remidal teacher. Even if you take efforts to learn into account.

@freemo @adi_k I don't know. I would prefer to proceed with education indefinitely, I think it is overall more fun than working, but maybe it would become so hard that I wouldn't manage to continue.

Interesting, I will think about that.

@freemo @adi_k Yeah this is not really solved by the main education system in Czechia. I think going forward to the future we would need to adapt to job changes effectively our whole lives. I don't think that limiting education to some time limit is a good idea.

@freemo @adi_k Yeah It is definitely harder to get to that knowledge level so you can execute that job properly, but overall work you do day to day is much harder for a remidal teacher.

@freemo @adi_k Ah sorry I misunderstood your policy. So you would give them the money to study without any condition other than that they should start attending college? Would you test their result at all? I actually like your idea these are just implementation details.

@freemo @adi_k I would say people in remedial level are doing much harder job than their paycheck tells. Even harder than doctorial professors do (it is much easier to work with adults than with children I would say). Should we take that into account at all when we pay them?

@freemo @adi_k I think the problem with this system is that those reward would mostly go to already rich people, because their position is much more stable and they got time and money to study harder.

Some people in Czech do attend school just for tax cuts. There are some schools that are really easy to study even without proper preparation. But this is more of a problem with the education system than your proposal. There is limit 28 years you have education for free then you pay to overcome this.

@freemo @adi_k In the Czech republic we get tax cuts when we are studying. There are stipediums too that pay students with good grades from state welfare. Do you mean this kind of reward based welfare?

@freemo @adi_k Yeah that seems reasonable in this concrete example. Still jobs like storeman, teachers are paid badly even though they contribute a lot to the society. We need them, they are full time jobs and people doing them are not paid well according to contributions to the community.

@freemo I agree with you now on the point that both sides push for individual rights in this example. I don't agree with perspectives used by conservatives, but it does not have any weight in the discussions we are having right now.

@freemo @adi_k Watching TV and reviewing TV shows is again not the same thing I know it sounds pesky, but one is a job (produces review of the show) and one just consumes. And I would said it is a high skill job (not everyone has the knowledge of doing the review). If its a full time job and contributes to the community, it should be payed enought to keep someone out of poverty (directly or indirectly). This is more my personal belief.

@freemo Yea we can argree that philosophical problems aren't that straight forward, thats the reason for meeting half way in the case of abortion. I wouldn't be okay with unconditional abortion, but Republicans are for banning it all the way.

@freemo @adi_k
I had problem with watching TV example, because I don't think it represents my argument well. I am not saying that we should force some jobs to exist just so somebody could do them, but if someone is doing job that is useful, critical and can't be done by robots right now he should
not live on the line of poverty.

This is a problem that wealth distribution tries to solve, atleast in my opinion and as I said there are jobs that are hard as f and still are not paid well (in my country).

@freemo @adi_k I don't think that most of the people want to do these kind of jobs, but maybe I just live in my little social bubble.. 😄 Okay, but this is a stretch. Watching tv is not a job. You are not contributing to society nor you are generating profits and not every low paid job is automatically low skill job. I know you are not saying that but I mentioned it just to be sure.

I agree that we need to tackle this low skill job by education for sure.

@freemo Yes I agree that was more my personal belief on guns. I should have communicated my thoughts and for sure it is violation of freedom.

Okay this is interesting, I would still say that no one is really violating child individual rights, because his right to live ends where right to one's body starts its not violation for me if one got his rights by violating the rights of another human.

Oh, I didn't take that into account. Still, if a woman did what she could to not have a baby and still had sex, then she is not required to bear that child. Just like when you let your doors open no one has the right to commit a robbery if you don't want them to do that. In the same way you would not drive cars if there was a possibility that someone would get hurt.

These are just my opinions. We diverged from our discussion about USA vs EU liberalism a little sorry. 😄

Yes in the USA, but Europe did mostly legalize those subsubstances (not all). Same holds for sex work too.

@freemo @adi_k Yeah that would be nice. Proper education that is on par with education given to richer folks is essential. I'm still interested in the result of the experiment that Finland did two years back. Not everyone wants to be in jobs that are profitable and we need those people too so still some wealth redistribution is needed to guarantee good life to most of the people.

I am personally really interested in cooperatively owned companies, but still did not have enought time to do my research.

@freemo Banning guns indeed is violation, restrictions are okay If they are reasonable. We restrict car driving by license too.

Even if you define the individual rights of the baby at conception, it is not really relevant. Baby has right to live, but does not have the right to be kept alive on behalf of other human beings. It is the same as a kidney transplant or transfusion. You can't be forced to do that.

What about drug use? I think that is a hard violation of human rights. Even though I've never smoked a pot. 😄

@freemo Again I was using neo-liberalism as description of policies from Margaret Thatcher et al. Is this definition still relevant? see Wikipedia.

Okay I'm going to use your definition. So by using your definition of classical liberalism as (free economy without government intervention and individual rights as a priority) I would say that American conservatives do worship free market, but I don't think individual rights are priority for them. Guns are mostly exception and democrats don't want to ban guns completely just make it harder to get. If we look at abortion, banning transgender serving in military, prisons for minor drug offenders those are policies mostly pushed by republicans.