A City on Mars: Reality kills space settlement dreams
Let’s not send a few thousand people to Mars as a big experiment in survival.
@arstechnica send? No.
If folks want to participate in a big experiment in survival on Mars, let's go for it. It would be their choice, and there are plenty of people willing to do it.
Framing things like this as sending overlooks agency.
@kaffeeringe the problem is that people may disagree on what that dignity entails, and I would even say you risk undermining dignity by imposing your personal feelings of dignity onto others.
You quickly get into issues of bodily autonomy.
Would you let me tell you what you can and can't do with your body? I would hope not, especially since you don't know me 🙂
I can already tell that we have different ideas about what constitutes dignity, so it's pretty likely that you would not like for me to impose my own values on you.
And that's why this is tricky.
@volkris @arstechnica I wouldn't let you decide on me, and I don't want to decide on you. But there are standards and what they are is part of public debate. This book seems to argue, that nobody should go to Mars, because [I didn't read the book].
@kaffeeringe but farming the imposition out to one social institution or another doesn't change that it is still imposing the decision on you or me
Regardless of who or what is deciding on you or me, it's still deciding on you or me, imposing some other standards, imposing others' ideas of what we should and can't do with our bodies.
@arstechnica
@volkris @arstechnica Every law is imposed on you.
@kaffeeringe and that makes it okay?
It strikes me as being pretty blithe to tell me what I can't do with my own body in my own future merely because, well, every law imposes on me.
@volkris @arstechnica That is not what I am saying. I am only saying that we are living in societies with an ethical basis and democratically decided rules. The first article of the German consitution is "Human dignity is inviolable." This protects me against the state but also against other people lowering that bar voluntarily. They can't sell their organs so I don't have to do the same.
@kaffeeringe and I'd say it's a violation of human dignity to tell people what they can and can't do with their organs *shrug*
I also don't see how undermining others' self ownership implies any protection for you.
Let them pay for it, then.
The book appears to be noting unresolved problems, not denying agency.
@Corb_The_Lesser well let any interested parties pay for it.
I'd chip in even though I'm not interested in going. Though I do have friends who are.
But anyway I was replying to the caption above that was talking about sending people, which is phrasing that is often problematic.
It immediately reminded me of, "they're not sending their best" if I have that infamous quote right.
@volkris @arstechnica
Not one single person "willing to do it" can actually go to Mars.
All space flight has always at all times been an endeavour that involved at least thousands (and generally tens to hundreds of thousands) of people operating in concert - a truly human project and never one due any one single person.
If there's ever settlers on Mars, it will be because we, humans, sent them - not one of them would've made it on their own.
@SvenGeier that's like saying I didn't go to the store or I didn't go visit my family, but rather I was sent, on account of other people having built my car or flown the plane I rode to get there.
The point is the agency, the decision being made by the individuals who take the journey.
@volkris @arstechnica Strangely, people visited their families before cars or airplanes existed. Before bicycles existed. Before horse-drawn carriages existed. It's almost as if visiting ones family doesn't require the development of new technologies, whole new industries, production infrastructures, legal frameworks ... but really only required agency.
Huh. How about that.
@SvenGeier ... well right, so same thing here.
@volkris @arstechnica But there is also something like human dignity that people can't give away, even if they want to. That is why people can't sell their organs or why certain experiments on humans aren't allowed. This is such an experiment.