@AnthonyFStevens
Actually you posted the most controversial case probably, but the EU has indeed a problem to respect human rights concerning migrants.
partially they are left to drown in the Mediterranean Sea, or hindered even to cross the sea in Tunisia.
And even if they reach Europe they are treated very bad, partially alone based on missing support for the concerned communities.
https://www.npr.org/2023/09/28/1201785102/lampedusa-italy-migrant-crisis-meloni
1/ Agreed 100%, but if migration to Europe is having the knock on effect of far right populism, how do we deal with the alleged migration crisis & stop the far right?
In 2021, 2.3m non-EU migrants arrived in Europe, out of 746m people. This is a tiny proportion, but the far right are slowly succeeding with convincing Europe's citizens that there's an invasion, especially with Muslims.
In the UK, the ruling Tory party cite immigration as the biggest concern amongst their....
2/ supporters & many of their traditional voter base are switching to the far right Reform UK party.
I would do anything to give my family a better life, & that includes a perilous boat journey, but populist leaders are using images of migrants in boats to sow social discord, as we're seeing across Europe.
What is the long-term solution, or is the perceived immigration to Europe issue being massively overstated by the far right?
@AnthonyFStevens
I really think that, like I wrote above, that it's improtant to fight the right wingers.
And I think it's possible by law i the court rooms.
What is needed are people who finance it and are willing to spend the time.
@AnthonyFStevens
Right wing today doesn't mean to have a conservative view concerning the market or financial rules.
Nowadays it means to be corrupt and criminal, selfish, arrogant and denying others basic rights.
In 2010, the #EU or #Immigration didn't even come into the top 10 issues of voter concern in the UK.
However, the far right populist politician Nigel Farage managed to bribe the #Conservatives that his party wouldn't run against their coalition government in the 2015 election if they promised an EU referendum.
Within 6 years he managed to convince 52% of the #UK to leave the EU citing a migrant invasion into Britain because of the EU's freedom of movement, & he succeeded. 😳
@AnthonyFStevens
The vote about staying in the EU or leaving wasn't clearly intended or communicated to initiate the #Brexit, so many of the 52% would have voted differently if they knew what would come.
David Cameron just faded away and left a political mining field and chaos.
And as you wrote about bribing, that's exactly what I mean has to be challenged in courts.
If the #Brexit vote was held today, polls show 60% would vote to #RejoinEU. However, the immense damage is done & #Farage used #AsylumSeekers & #Migration to achieve it.
Other far right leaders have copied Farage as we've seen in Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, France, Poland, Hungary, Spain & Germany.
This isn't an issue I think we can dismiss. To stop the rise of the far right, I believe we have to meet the threat head on.
Europe knows exactly where this can lead to.
@AnthonyFStevens
What you mean with
> To stop the rise of the far right, I believe we have to meet the threat head on.
Both #Trump & #Farage are using the language of #Hitler in 1930s #Germany.
Many good people stood by & did nothing, & by the time they realised what was happening, the #Nazis were too powerful to stop, & the people too scared to challenge them.
Trump tried to overthrow the #US Government & he's favourite to win next year's election!
If an #Insurrection can happen in #America, it can happen anywhere. I believe decent people must act now before it's too late again.
> I believe decent people must act now before it's too late again.
And how you think people should get active?
1/ Just like #Brexit, the #FarRight seemingly have a unified message & have connections throughout Europe. Many have links to Putin & investigations show #Russian based funding.
A fractured #NATO without the #US under #Trump, & a crumbling #EU is EXACTLY what #Putin wants as he tries to rebuild the #USSR.
Putin's #Ukraine plan faltered when Trump lost, but the COVID pandemic gave him an unexpected chance. He just didn't bargain for the Western response he got.
2/ No one gave #Trump or #Brexit a chance of winning & #Putin supported & reputedly funded & interfered in the election of both. Our underestimation cost the #US & #UK dearly.
The Brexit campaign were disorganised because no one seriously thought we'd vote to leave the EU, yet here we are outside it.
I sense the same level of complacency over the rise of #Europe's #FarRight because of #Migration, as I did with Brexit & Trump.
It can't just be me who's this concerned. 🤷🏾♂️
@AnthonyFStevens
Absolutely correct, but how you intend to fight it?
1/ There needs to be a workable plan. We can't allow the #FarRight to control the #Migration narrative like they did with #Brexit.
Firstly we need to show the true figures & setup safe routes & quick processing of migrants to be sorted into #AsylumSeekers & economic migrants.
At the same time Europe needs to look at the damage caused by it's colonial past & figure out ways to repair it so those looking for a better life, have a better & safer life where they are.
2/ The West has only seen Africa & the Middle East as regions to exploit for their precious resources & mineral wealth.
They've installed crooked dictators in these mineral wealth countries, so the West could prosper, whilst the ordinary people of these countries suffered.
Prior to the internet & social media, they thought this life was all they had, but seeing images of wealthy Westerners has made millions desperate to get away from poverty & religious persecution.
3/ The solution won't be easy or quick, but if the West wants to stop the flow of #Migrants, it needs to fix what it's broken.
Take the colbalt in DRC. The West, China & Russia mine the mineral, but not one of them has a processing plant in Africa to provide jobs & economic security.
The Middle East fared better, but crooked secular leaders lived in luxury as their people lived in poverty which led to Islamic revolutions & the terrorism we see today.
@AnthonyFStevens
The problem is that some of the proposed solutions require the agreement of the people you intend to fight.
Every war ends with peace talks & a plan. If you're a party of government, you have to govern for all & that unfortunately includes the radical #FarRight.
I despise them, but they can't be excluded from the conversation & solution. This is the only way we can deradicalise them, as anything else will only punch them into the shadows. We'd be crazy to think they'll just go away.
Unless we face these issues head on, they'll become bigger issues further down the line.
@AnthonyFStevens
if the far-right is already radical it's relatively easy to try the at court.
So I never agree that government has to include them in general considerations.
If this was the case, why has the far right just won elections in Italy & the Netherlands?
By your reasoning, Geert Wilders & Meloni be in court & not running or looking to run European countries?
@AnthonyFStevens
In best case yes. Also Victor Orban.
I even would wish that some German politicians have to answer some uncomfortable questions at court.
Orban is another. He supports #Putin #Trump #Meloni #Wilders #Weidel & others.
The #FarRight are creating connections which makes them stronger. In comparison, what do the Centre & Left have as a coordinated alternative?
Just like #Brexit, I can't see a coordinated alternative, all I can see is complacency & it makes me truly despair my friend...
@AnthonyFStevens
yes right.
Instead of fighting intolerance the left rather is supporting the right wingers with their toxic agendas.
In Germany it's still more complicated due to the unfortunate collation.
This is the issue David, in a democracy, everyone has a vote & a voice, so regardless of how grotesque their views are & how much we may despise them, they have to be included in the conversation.
It's the downside of democracy. 🤷🏾♂️
@AnthonyFStevens
Actually corruption was already obviously involved, so there would be a case to try and to see that democratic rules are violated.
That's the problem with those people, they come to power by democratic rules, to undermine exactly these.
So why aren't they brought to justice before they come to power?
@AnthonyFStevens
Good question!
In some cases they are shielded by laws, or the laws have loopholes.
These loopholes need closing & the law shields removing before everything crashes & burns around us...
@AnthonyFStevens
Correct, that's in part what I'm talking about.
Another problem are biased judges. You know from USA that their assignments can be quite political.
That's something that's always perplexed me. I don't think I've ever heard a #UK judge's politics ever discussed, or brought up as an issue.
We're now seeing how crazy #America's judicial system is now, when #Trump has loaded the Supreme Court with #CONservative appointees & is now trying to delay his several trials in the hope he can win power & pardon himself! 😳
If this was happening elsewhere, the #US would probably invade in the name of regime change! 😂😂
@AnthonyFStevens That's probably a good sign for UK judges.
FAR too often, and you're committing this yourself here, people talk about judges' supposed politics instead of actually looking at the logic and reasoning in their opinions. It's a strawman tactic.
Judges' opinions are right or wrong regardless of their personal politics, and yet we have so many in the press and on social media politicizing that non-political core of the issue.
If the UK manages to escape that misdirection, well I'm jealous.
Judge Aileen Cannon?
Judge Clarence Thomas?
🤔
Here in the #UK our independent, non-politically appointed judiciary are meant to act without fear or favour.
We have several independent safeguards to ensure this is the case, plus the House of Lords & the European Court of Justice made up of 37 Independent Supreme Court Judges.
Nothing's perfect, but you'd be hard pressed to get a politicised ruling at every stage before they sit in judgement. #Europe isn't #America.
And there are also safeguards in the US system, and also people accuse these two of politicized rulings when it's hard to make that case.
And that's really my point.
There's so much personal mudslinging, and so little actual legal analysis to support the dramatic claims that float around.
@volkris @AnthonyFStevens
I'm strongly convinced that Roe v Wade wouldn't have been overturned in June 2022 with other judges. So appointing judges by the government is indeed potentially highly political.
Apart from that the ideals of the law are teached in school as quite high. When I had some small cases by myself I was left alone with some really crap decisions.
Like you wrote: judges are free to decide but quality of decision and reasoning is not always given, ...
@DavidBruchmann but Roe v Wade had already been overturned by Casey long ago.
And again this is the issue of focusing on judges instead of focusing on reasoning.
It's extremely telling that you didn't mention anything about actual arguments, actual logic, and just said something about what judges might do.
That is crucial.
I'm not sure why you want to protect the law mechanisms in general against any critics.
@DavidBruchmann Well I think that the rule of law is pretty important to society.
As is accurate recitation of the facts as we go about the democratic processes that help us establish that rule of law.
I happen to believe that anarchism is a bad thing that leaves society worse off, so from there I wish to protect the mechanism that establishes rational governance.
So I hope this clarifies things for you. I want to protect against critics who undermine the legal order whether through bad policy or false propaganda. I think it's worth protecting.
@volkris @AnthonyFStevens
Bribes undermine the legal order.
Criticizing bribes has the same target as you have: clear the system of reasons for critics.
@DavidBruchmann That's not actually true though.
Yes, it makes for drama and it makes for a sensationalized headlines, but it's not actually factually true.
If I bribe you to do the right thing, it's still the right thing regardless of the bribe.
So we have all of these articles with sensational, often later debunked headlines focusing on personalities but precious little attention being paid to the reasoning itself.
And the reasoning is really all that matters.
So it ends up being ad hominem arguments full of juicy speculation about personal lives that don't actually matter in the least.
The reasoning is what matters.
All the talk of bribes is just basically propaganda.
@DavidBruchmann and once again I notice that you aren't addressing any actual arguments being made in court rulings.
Uncritical view? I'm criticizing your view!
What you're describing is just not how the US judicial system works.
It's all about reasoning, not about individuals. You keep coming back to individuals, now you're talking about long time judges for some reason, and again that doesn't matter at all.
What matters is the actual reasoning in the opinion, not the identity of the person who put pen to paper to write the opinion.
The US judicial system is not about ad hominem arguments. And you are giving nothing but ad hominem arguments.
If it would be true what you say, Republicans in the USA wouldn't have spend so much efforts to install their own puppets in the SCOTUS.
Oh I see you are doubling down on the ad hominem with a conspiracy theory.
Once again I highlight that you aren't actually engaging with the ONLY thing that matters, the reasoning in the opinion.
Shall we discuss your breakfast preferences and how your choice of waffles versus pancakes has something to do with abortion?
I'm poking fun obviously, but I'm doing it to stress my point: there is a single thing that matters, the reasoning, and you (and so many others) talk about everything, all this drama, all this controversy, a lot of things that are just plain false, everything except the ONE thing that actually matters here.
The reasoning.
Casey already pointed out that the reasoning in Roe v Wade didn't really work. And that was a completely different set of judges. So this focus on personalities just doesn't hold.
Any more than my pancakes can hold the syrup, which is why I'm going with waffles.
@volkris @AnthonyFStevens
I take the waffles but without syrup.
Keep on fighting another ones view!
@volkris @AnthonyFStevens
I certainly can't agree to an uncritical view like this.
In Germany after WW II the judicial system had still long time judges and other staff from the NS regime, so you think it didn't have an impact?