@taylorlorenz I keep getting the weird sense that this is a recurring phenomenon in the MAGA/disinfo space. It seems like a substantial number of these people end up there as a result of distrust and bitterness toward institutions they feel "were mean to them" and they find community, praise, and validation among people feeling similarly burned. It's like some kind of angry incel effect. tbh I think this effect took Elon from bad to worse.
@genoforprez honestly, everything I've been seeing for decades tells me that MAGA attitudes were a result of such disenfranchisement with the normal institutions of society.
Trump didn't create that. The distrust and bitterness was already there, and it created him.
This is a social trend that has gone unaddressed for too long, and we keep getting angry about the effect without addressing the cause.
... which all too often even feeds back into the cause, making the effects even worse, and repeat.
@volkris @genoforprez @taylorlorenz
That is true for some people, but others are lost. Some people are so mistrusting of critical sources they simply shut down. They can't talk politics without becoming nearly rabid, and anyone who disagrees slightly is an enemy.
Sure, there are rational people, but they don't speak lest they become an enemy. Why would one insist on being a part of a group willing to cannibalize them for so little? (look at Vivek) It's better to be politically homeless, imo.
So the question is, what do we do about the people you describe as lost? Do you really believe they are so completely beyond redemption, and if so, what do we do with that conclusion?
@genoforprez @taylorlorenz
@volkris @genoforprez @taylorlorenz
My advice then, is if you cannot "save" someone, youjust make the world better for them, around them, and in spite of them. Give them UBI, universal healthcare, jobs that pay a living wage, a clean environment, etc. They can complain all the want, but we're going to make the world a better place all the same.
@Cymphoni_Fantastique it's not so simple since our democratic processes involve them.
You can't do things for people when the people are needed to be able to do things.
So I don't think that's a workable response.
@genoforprez @taylorlorenz
@volkris @genoforprez @taylorlorenz
Things don't only get done because of democracy. The power of people to change their community is incredible, as we can see with the MAGA minority affecting great change.
I don't have all the answers. You asked what I would do, and I answered. Do you have any suggestions since mine is unworkable (even though that's basically what we've been doing already)?
I personally don't believe the crowds are lost causes. Individuals, maybe, but on the whole I believe that engagement can invite substantial numbers over to healthier perspectives that would be eager to partner in addressing society's needs, even if points of disagreement remain elsewhere.
IF I did believe they were such lost causes then I'd give up on looking for progress through government altogether, admit that there's no path forward for things like UBI, and get ready to live the rest of my life dealing with an environment characterized by cruddy, corrupt, and ineffective government.
Hopefully after I'm gone, generations in the future, there will have been enough evolution that society can have better governance.
No durable progress can be made with such division among the population.
If we give up on the other side, then we give up on progress and might as well spend our time focused on other things.
@genoforprez @taylorlorenz
@volkris @genoforprez @taylorlorenz
The individuals are tied to the crowds. By deviating, they risk losing their social connections for a new group that might not accept them, so I understand why most people just go with the flow.
Being lost is not being a lost cause. When you're lost, someone has to go out and bring you back. Most people do not have the patience or emotional stamina to do that, so I generally don't talk about that unless there's already a relationship.
@volkris @genoforprez @taylorlorenz
When you can't do anything, do what you can. Don't put burdens on people they can't carry, but also sometimes people need an idea or a spark. It's hard to tell, but that's why we talk to people. I agree that we need to be better about making political "middle spaces." However, I don't really know how this would look, so I don't speak on it. I'm much better with interpersonal dialogue.
Maybe someone like you can start. You seem to have the passion at least.
@Cymphoni_Fantastique I wouldn't say we need to make middle spaces. I don't even really know what that means.
I would say we ALL need to spend more time actually understanding each other instead of just buying into othering and stereotypes about what "they" believe, and in particular about what lost causes "they" are.
When I teach I know that it's my job to meet the students where they are. Part of that is listening to them directly to see where they are, and not accepting what some third party says about where they are.
I don't think it's about sparking as much as it's about inviting. It's like dancing. You invite your partner to move in a certain way, but that requires engagement to figure out what invite to send and how to send it.
In our society we have way too many people operating based on claims about people, instead of understanding of the people, and that just ends in toes being stepped on, which is no good for anyone.
@genoforprez @taylorlorenz
@volkris @genoforprez @taylorlorenz
I never said they are beyond redemption. Most people don't have a good enough relationship to influence them away from being extremists. And it takes a lot of time and emotional investment to forge that relationship in spite of differences. Most people are not going to be able to do that, so they are functionally lost. I think it's genuinely bad advice to try to mobilize people to "save" far right strangers, but if you have a relationship already, maybe try