@_dm @volkris and to think that “the system” can keep a fascist in check is risky and misguided.
A system is only as good as the people in the positions of influence within it. The amount of people who “took a bullet” during the 1st Trump admin by refusing or pushing pack against insane ideas was huge (Miley, Esper, Raffensberger, Vindmen, Fiona Hill, even Barr! etc). When Trump says his biggest regret is not picking “good” people (loyal sycophants) we should believe him.
In 2024 it’s okay to be a one-issuer voter. And that issue is I would like to vote again in 2028
@banty Right, a system is only as good as the people in the positions of influence, and there are millions and millions of people, literally, in positions to make sure no one elected president would be able to do something like not have elections in 2028.
It reminds me of moon landing conspiracy theories. It's often pointed out that we know the moon landing happened because the number of people that would have to be involved in a hoax is so huge that it would definitely have gotten out by now.
Same thing here. For the 2028 elections to be canceled would require basically the whole country to be involved in the conspiracy. It's not going to happen.
America may be overly fixated on conspiracy theories, but what happened in 2020 wasn’t some shadowy plot—it unfolded openly on Twitter and front-page news, yet over 50% of the population seemed indifferent. A conspiracy is simply when two or more people agree to break the law; it doesn’t have to be a secret Illuminati scheme.
It’s not hard to imagine how 2028 could spiral with Trump (or a loyalist) in power. Just replay 2020, but each time someone resists, they’re fired or resign, and are replaced.
Trump to Georgia/Michigan/Wisconsin: “I didn’t lose. Find my votes.”
Pushback, death threats, resignations, and eventually—compliance by discarding valid votes.
Court challenges arise, but a friendly judge like Cannon might allow it. Even if a moderate judge rules against him, Trump could ignore the ruling, as he did in 2020.
More threats, pressure, and resignations. State electors are swapped out for Trump supporters, and he secures their electoral votes.
Protests erupt outside the White House or state capitals. The National Guard and law enforcement are called in. Trump once again suggests, “Shoot them in the leg.”
Resignations and firings continue until someone finally obeys.
There aren’t “millions” of civil servants able to block these actions. Once one deranged order slips through, we’ll be left depending on individuals’ moral judgments—not a situation anyone should want.
@banty But that's exactly it: 2020 proved that it can't happen, Trump tried to win and the structures that we have in place to make things right worked exactly as intended.
You say someone finally obeys, but you're missing that it's not someone. It's everyone. There's no single point of failure in this system, by design. Thousands of people would have to be not only fired, but replaced, and replaced in a way that the general population would accept. Which they wouldn't, especially considering the fact that people are after all opposed to Trump.
Civil servants blocking these actions? No, you have that backwards. You would have to have civil servants actively participating in the actions, an army of them.
Like I said, the vastness of that conspiracy is just not realistic.
@banty those are entirely different governmental structures with different rules with different countries with different norms with different demographic splits and on and on.
People pointing at Weimar Republic really don't seem to know how incredibly different that situation is to this one..
Let me emphasize one thing, though: the president does not have authority over the people that we independently elect to Congress, and nobody can be president unless the people we elect to Congress recognize them as president.
If we all vote for a bunch of representatives that want to overwhelmingly go ahead and just end the United States, well, none of this matters anyway.
But that's exceedingly unlikely. It's not going to happen. Even recent events show that the population isn't interested in ending the US. We're going to keep on going, we're going to keep voting for representatives that keep us going, even if it's rolling in mud, kicking and screaming the whole way.
Remember how important it is that we have separation of powers, that we have a system set up so that no one can be president without the other branch of government actively going out of their way to confirm their presidency.
We have so many checks specifically set up to avoid The sensational outcome that you are talking about, and they have proven themselves to be very solid time and time again.
@volkris @_dm There is no world where "everyone" needs to comply with Trump—or any dictator—for a democracy to fall. Do you think 1860 USA, the Weimar Republic in 1933, Chile in 1973, Turkey in 2016, or present-day Hungary required full compliance to erode their democracies?
A "vast conspiracy" isn't necessary. 60 million+ people are voting for Trump. That is more than enough.
Dismissing the significance of the National Guard or law enforcement being told to open fire on protesters because not all would comply is beyond disturbing. What happens when just 25% follow that order? What do the other 75% do? Join in? Leave? Fight among themselves?
Let’s end it here to spare myself and @_dm any more of this.
If you want to vote for the above scenario as a democracy test or stick it to the Dems that is your right. I personally just hope you don’t live in a swing state.