If I could ask powerful world leaders a question and get an honest answer the question that interests me the most is "How do you see the future of your country? Who is a part of it? How are they a part of it?"
In the US Republicans are peddling a vision of a white, English-speaking, Christian America. A nation with very few or no non-citizen residents.
America is currently a largely white, overwhelmingly Christian nation with a significant population of non-citizen residents.
1/
11 million people out of 326 million people, who live in the US, aren't citizens and will never be citizens (unless we change something.)
They are here because US companies can pay them lower wages. A non-citizen is less likely to complain. Not because "Americans won't do those jobs."
I hate when people say that. These people are essentially Americans. How can we make *that* argument while also saying they are somehow mysteriously able to do exhausting, work for low wages?
2/
From most Democrats the "vision of the future" is murky, but amounts to "just leave things as they are" far too often.
I think we should be a diverse nation, as we have always been. A nation that both assimilates and is changed by the people who live here.
I don't think we should have a significant portion of the population who lives here indefinitely but will never really be a part of America.
It's OK to visit, but if you live here we need your help with running the government.
3/
The Republican project to eliminate undocumented Americans is either a fake out: that is, we will look around in 10 years and there will still be millions of undocumented people working in the shadows with no path to citizenship.
OR it's the same kind of eliminationism that leads to some of the worse crimes in history.
I want to hear someone say NO. There should be a path to citizenship. Requirements should be reasonable. Become a part of America if you want to stay.
4/
I think a lot of people would agree with "Become a part of America if you want to stay."
A friend of mine works in roofing. He's been doing the job for 20 years which is amazing because it's a very dangerous job. From time to time I've had to talk him down from supporting Republicans because he sees directly how his wages are lower, his job is less safe because most of the other people doing the same job are here illegally.
It's easy to blame immigrants for "not following the law"
5/
Blaming immigrants for "not following the law" is also BS because the US laws have been contradictory. They way the laws are enforced ranges from random to incomprehensible.
This is obviously because there are business owners who want to hire people for lower wages, but don't care about them beyond that. We can all see this happening.
There have even been attempts to make government programs to codify this arrangement.
6/
Things like "guest worker" programs that let people work in the US in agriculture for two years but then they need to return to their home country for a time before they can return to do two more years. Basically an exception just so farm owners can get their field workers without those workers ever becoming a part of the country.
Just keeping a thumb on people pressing them down.
7/
And that downward pressure doesn't just impact immigrant workers, it has an impact on the whole industry.
Everyone acts like it's unthinkable that picking strawberries or roofing could be a job that pays a decent wage. We really need to stop doing that and acknowledge the people who have been doing this work. Show them some respect.
8/8
The Democratic version of "doing something about immigration" can't just be the same thing Republicans have been doing but "less and more polite" --
ICE rounds up people who have been in the country for years. As far as I'm concerned these people are Americans. In the past the same industries just offer more jobs and bring in new people to replace them. That's the choke point no one will talk about, from the "room rental" landlords to the field captains to the contractors.
There is a conservative black youTuber who is pretty obnoxious but he pulled a stunt once where he went to Home Depot here in the Bronx and tried to wait with the construction day laborers to get work. He didn't really understand the system and made a big deal about being rejected and ranted about immigration ruining everything.
But his segment exposed how there are a lot of "understandings" and social infrastructure in place to supply cheap labor to these industries.
All of this because someone wants to pay a little less for their workers.
I was horrified when I heard that ICE was going after people "at Home Depots" but I can also understand how to some people it might sound like "wow finally someone is doing something about this"
Paying a human person $80 a day to lay roofing is unreasonable. That job is too dangerous and requires too much skill for such low pay.
That why we can't talk about immigration without talking about wages and working conditions.
Keep in mind that that is a political choice, a matter of personal values, and whether I may or may not agree with it, I know that a lot of people absolutely believe that rounding them up is itself the proper role of government.
You have to realize that it's a political question of personal values, that there is no one way, if you want to change policy. Just saying there is only one way gives up the fight of engaging with people who believe otherwise, and bringing them over to your point of view.
Yes, rounding them up is an option. Personally, I don't think it's an option that matches my preferences, but I have to appreciate that it is an option so that I can invite people to choose the option that I would prefer.
@volkris @JessTheUnstill @futurebird This thread is about human lives, not pizza toppings. ICE is "rounding them up" right now, without warrants or due process, and putting people in concentration camps. Preferences don't really enter into it... it's not a "preference" to want to put a person into a concentration camp. It's just bigotry.
@changemewtf it IS a preference, not one that I share, but it is absolutely a preference, and if you don't engage with it as a preference then you lose the argument before it begins.
Yes, a lot of people prefer this. If you don't realize that then you won't be able to even begin to try to shift those preferences.
And that's how they win.
If you don't engage them where they are then you leave them to continue this stuff. You can yell all you want, but it does no good. Heck, that sort of approach is how Trump got reelected in the first place.
If you don't engage in a winning strategy than you lose, we all lose. This is the kind of thing I've been warning about for years, and it came to pass, because people did not engage in winning strategies against this kind of thing.
Yes, it is a preference, and that's why we need to counter it so that people prefer policy that is more humane, in my opinion.
@volkris @JessTheUnstill @futurebird And your winning strategy is... what? To post these pedantic gotchas in random Fedi threads?
Coddling so-called centrists and conservatives with kid gloves is actually how Trump got elected. Democrats refused to push back hard on easy peasy topics like genocide and concentration camps. They lost big, and now we suffer the consequences.
STOP trying to win over fascists and FIGHT THEM instead.
I thought I've been clear but I can say it again: the winning strategy is to actually meet people where they are, understand the world as it is, and actually work convince people over to your side instead of just preaching to the choir.
Preaching to the choir gives up the game. It is forfeiting, letting them win. Don't do that.
Centrist? Who in the world said anything about centrist? You want to promote radical communism? Great! Go for it, but the exact same strategy applies. You'll have to meet people where they are and convinced them to come over to your perspective.
So long as you just keep preaching to your choir you won't get anywhere. So long as you bury your head in the sand and deny the reality of how society and humans work, you're not going to make any inroads.
I'm sorry, but this is the stark reality: if you want to defeat fascism then you have to engage with people and convince them not to support fascist policies.
There is simply no way around that truth.
That's simply how this world is. That's an unfortunate part of this whole democracy thing. You might think people are awful, and they might even be awful, but you can't address society without dealing with people.
@volkris @JessTheUnstill @futurebird It's super cool if you've had some positive experiences with this strategy. Seems like we're talking past each other, so let's put a pin in this one. Thanks for your persistence and enthusiasm