What truly sucks about a masculinity that constantly sees itself as under siege by homosexuality and feminism is all the things that get cut off to buttress masculinity against encroachment. As soon as anything is seen as something gays do, you aren't allowed to do it anymore under pressure of being cast out of masculinity.

@Tel
As a self-ascribred masculine guy, I'm okay with that. Masculinity is a state of mind, a pride in the male traits that I have. It is part of my identity, just as your identity is your own.

I like not wearing pink or having a lisp. I should have the freedom to make that choice without pressure from those who choose to live differently

@Demosthenes that's the thing. You have cut off pink as a wearable colour, and also cast out anyone with a speech impediment. They are not allowed within masculinity and anyone who likes the colour pink or who speaks differently from you cannot be masculine, they are othered and bullied out of the space. This is an example of the toxicity of masculinity. Cutting off the arm to stop the spread of the 'infection' of gayness or femininity until fewer and fewer actions and presentations are allowable for masculine people who constantly fear excommunication from masculinity

@Tel
I don't cast out other people for having lisps, I just choose not to have one. Same with my clothes. Same with my exercise habits.
It's interesting how we are supposed to have a choice in how we represent ourselves, unless of course my choices don't align with yours.

@Demosthenes I'm not talking about your choice of presentation. I'm talking about how you have decided that pink cannot be masculine and anyone who wears pink is not masculine. This cutting off of things and saying that anyone who does this thing is not masculine.

@Tel
This would be true if I were just living for myself. However, I live in a social environment where choices in my appearance broadcast social status signals and tribal affiliations. Evolutionarily, such signals would be evolutionarily adventagous since it would make working with your own tribe easier and make mate selection easier.
I choose to broadcast social signals that I consider to be masculine. Other people can make other choices, but I should have the freedom to make my own.

@Demosthenes evolutionary, evopsych is a crock of shit. Stop relying on it.

And stop making everything about yourself. I'm talking about societal trends and all you can consider is your own presentation. Not everything is about you.

@Tel
Perhaps you're right about the evopsych, I would love to discuss more about it without a fight. It's interesting to have a productive conversation with those who think differently from me.

I am making it about me because your post above shames me for my actions and beliefs. I am not trying to force my beliefs on others, I'm just trying to live my own life the best I can.

@Demosthenes but you are making it about yourself. You came into my mentions under a post about masculinity and decided I was telling you to wear pink (which is weird. People generally don't like it when you come into their mentions unprompted to start an argument with them. This is my "teach others" portion of this conversation since you clearly need to learn this.)

I'm saying people should be able to do what they like and you decided this was an attack on your choices. That would only be true if you saw people being free to do what they like as a threat to your own masculinity. The very thing I'm saying I dislike about fragile, constantly besieged masculinity.

@Tel
"People generally don't like it when you come into their mentions unprompted to start an argument with them"
I reply to public posts to start interesting discussions with people who think differently from me. If you want me to leave, say the word, but then I don't understand the purpose of making a post public.
"I'm saying people should be able to do what they like and you decided this was an attack on your choices"
You were saying that my choices to behave within the bounds of what I consider masculine is wrong. That's why I said what I did.

@Demosthenes I said precisely zero things about you. I don't even know who you are except for your choice to willingly make an account on reply-guy central. Which should have tipped me off that this discussion would be fruitless but I'm feeling generous today.

Your fear that if other people are allowed to do what they like that it will somehow infect your masculinity is what is wrong. And I am indeed now saying that you are wrong and your actions and feelings are wrong. Because you have declared yourself the gatekeeper of masculinity and said that if anyone is allowed to wear pink then you will be forced to, and that this will somehow make you gay. A patently ridiculous position to take, but I'm simply engaging with your arguments.

@Tel
You may have misgivings with talking with me, but I do appreciate you continuing the conversation despite it. We are all made better through careful discussion.
My fear with dressing and behaving femininely isn't that I will become gay, but rather that others will think or perceive me as gay. Given that my identity is masculine, that would be an affront.
Just as trans people are offended by getting told that they're a man when they're actually a woman, and just as saying that a woman is too manly is offensive, so too would perceiving me as gay. Hence why I take steps to avoid that.

@Demosthenes again, my original post said nothing about your personal choices, but about the choices of others and how you see their choices as a threat to your own self.

And why are you so terrified of doing anything that might seem gay? Are gay people treated poorly by you and yours? Perhaps work on reducing homophobia in your community so that it wouldn't be so terrifying to be subjected to the everyday reality of a gay person.