What truly sucks about a masculinity that constantly sees itself as under siege by homosexuality and feminism is all the things that get cut off to buttress masculinity against encroachment. As soon as anything is seen as something gays do, you aren't allowed to do it anymore under pressure of being cast out of masculinity.
@Tel
As a self-ascribred masculine guy, I'm okay with that. Masculinity is a state of mind, a pride in the male traits that I have. It is part of my identity, just as your identity is your own.
I like not wearing pink or having a lisp. I should have the freedom to make that choice without pressure from those who choose to live differently
@Demosthenes that's the thing. You have cut off pink as a wearable colour, and also cast out anyone with a speech impediment. They are not allowed within masculinity and anyone who likes the colour pink or who speaks differently from you cannot be masculine, they are othered and bullied out of the space. This is an example of the toxicity of masculinity. Cutting off the arm to stop the spread of the 'infection' of gayness or femininity until fewer and fewer actions and presentations are allowable for masculine people who constantly fear excommunication from masculinity
@Tel
I don't cast out other people for having lisps, I just choose not to have one. Same with my clothes. Same with my exercise habits.
It's interesting how we are supposed to have a choice in how we represent ourselves, unless of course my choices don't align with yours.
@Demosthenes I'm not talking about your choice of presentation. I'm talking about how you have decided that pink cannot be masculine and anyone who wears pink is not masculine. This cutting off of things and saying that anyone who does this thing is not masculine.
@Tel
This would be true if I were just living for myself. However, I live in a social environment where choices in my appearance broadcast social status signals and tribal affiliations. Evolutionarily, such signals would be evolutionarily adventagous since it would make working with your own tribe easier and make mate selection easier.
I choose to broadcast social signals that I consider to be masculine. Other people can make other choices, but I should have the freedom to make my own.
@Demosthenes evolutionary, evopsych is a crock of shit. Stop relying on it.
And stop making everything about yourself. I'm talking about societal trends and all you can consider is your own presentation. Not everything is about you.
@Tel
Perhaps you're right about the evopsych, I would love to discuss more about it without a fight. It's interesting to have a productive conversation with those who think differently from me.
I am making it about me because your post above shames me for my actions and beliefs. I am not trying to force my beliefs on others, I'm just trying to live my own life the best I can.
@Demosthenes but you are making it about yourself. You came into my mentions under a post about masculinity and decided I was telling you to wear pink (which is weird. People generally don't like it when you come into their mentions unprompted to start an argument with them. This is my "teach others" portion of this conversation since you clearly need to learn this.)
I'm saying people should be able to do what they like and you decided this was an attack on your choices. That would only be true if you saw people being free to do what they like as a threat to your own masculinity. The very thing I'm saying I dislike about fragile, constantly besieged masculinity.
@Tel
"People generally don't like it when you come into their mentions unprompted to start an argument with them"
I reply to public posts to start interesting discussions with people who think differently from me. If you want me to leave, say the word, but then I don't understand the purpose of making a post public.
"I'm saying people should be able to do what they like and you decided this was an attack on your choices"
You were saying that my choices to behave within the bounds of what I consider masculine is wrong. That's why I said what I did.
@Tel
You may have misgivings with talking with me, but I do appreciate you continuing the conversation despite it. We are all made better through careful discussion.
My fear with dressing and behaving femininely isn't that I will become gay, but rather that others will think or perceive me as gay. Given that my identity is masculine, that would be an affront.
Just as trans people are offended by getting told that they're a man when they're actually a woman, and just as saying that a woman is too manly is offensive, so too would perceiving me as gay. Hence why I take steps to avoid that.
@Demosthenes again, my original post said nothing about your personal choices, but about the choices of others and how you see their choices as a threat to your own self.
And why are you so terrified of doing anything that might seem gay? Are gay people treated poorly by you and yours? Perhaps work on reducing homophobia in your community so that it wouldn't be so terrifying to be subjected to the everyday reality of a gay person.
@Tel
The implication from your statement "As soon as anything is seen as something gays do, you aren't allowed to do it anymore under pressure of being cast out of masculinity" has the implication that trying to project a masculine identity separate from those which gays project is wrong. I _want_ to be recognized as masculine, which requires differentiation from some point.
"And why are you so terrified of doing anything that might seem gay?" The same reason trans people often dress in the norms of their gender. I want to be _recognized_ as straight since it is part of my identity. I take pride in it.
@Tel
More than just recognized as straight. I want to be recognized as masculine.
@Demosthenes you're making this all about yourself again. Try and think about others sometimes.
@Tel
I am just trying to use my own experience to show what I perceive to be flaws in your reasoning.
Is a trans woman considered fragile for wanting recognition as a woman?
@Demosthenes you cannot apply anecdote as data. Come on, as a qoto chud you should know the list of rhetorical fallacies by heart. Facts don't care about your feelings and all that.
@Tel
Actually, most of life is just emotion with but a thin veneer of logic to justify actions retroactively. I'm not a robot and neither are you, lol.
You are right about anecdote and all that, which is why I posed my question.
Is a trans woman considered fragile for wanting recognition as a feminine woman?
If no, then why would a masculine man be considered fragile for wanting recognition as such.
@Tel
I commented on this but I now don't see it. Sorry if this is a duplicate comment.
You are right about the anecode thing, which is why I asked you the question.
Is a trans woman considered fragile for wanting recognition as a feminine woman?
If no, then why would a masculine man be considered fragile for wanting recognition as such?
@Demosthenes You're trying very hard to take this discussion off topic but I'll steer us back. Why is the colour pink (described as a fiery, vigourous colour in the 1800's) such a threat to masculinity? Why are you so scared that any man who considers himself masculine deciding to wear pink will turn you gay?
@Tel
Signaling. Women typically project femininity by projecting social cues that show they are feminine, eg. Make-up, long hair, dresses, etc. Many women and trans women feel better by projecting such social cues because they then get recognized as who they are.
Masculine men use such cues that signal their affiliation so they are recognized as who they are. That requires differentiation from groups they aren't a part of, hence why masculine men don't like wearing things associated with gay or efiminate men.
@Demosthenes I hear gay men love breathing. You should stop if you don't want to be considered gay.
Such a shame. We were having a nice discussion up to this point :( I hope you have a great day
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@Demosthenes @Tel sexual orientation has nothing to do with how masculine you are.
There are really masculine gays while there can be really feminine straight men. Also if it wasn’t the case, there wouldn’t be lesbian trans women.
You can dress all the way you want, but when you say things like : I don’t want to be perceived as gay, you perpetuate negative stereotypes about LGBT people which only ends up hurting them.
@louiscouture
You are absolutely right. There does tend to be a correlation between gay and unmasculine (at least in US gay culture), but you are right that my choice of language was imperfect and stereotypical.
I'll try to use unmasculine or efiminate going forward.
@Tel
@Demosthenes @Tel wait how is being gay less masculine ?
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I have to agree with @louiscouture here. The only thing in your conversation that strikes me as harmful, as well as in accurate, is the notion that sexual orientation dictates masculinity or femininity. Being Gay does not make one unmasculin or efminate and pushing that stereotype is ultimately harmful.
With that said I see no harm in you wishing to present an image of masculinity. The issue only arises when you dictate that others are not masculine or can not be masculine because of their choice in partners. By saying being gay makes you less masculine is to imply they are less of a man by virtue of the fact that they are gay. That is harmful.
@freemo
I agree. It was very bad choice of language on my part, and I appreciate it being pointed out to me.
@louiscouture @Tel
@Demosthenes I said precisely zero things about you. I don't even know who you are except for your choice to willingly make an account on reply-guy central. Which should have tipped me off that this discussion would be fruitless but I'm feeling generous today.
Your fear that if other people are allowed to do what they like that it will somehow infect your masculinity is what is wrong. And I am indeed now saying that you are wrong and your actions and feelings are wrong. Because you have declared yourself the gatekeeper of masculinity and said that if anyone is allowed to wear pink then you will be forced to, and that this will somehow make you gay. A patently ridiculous position to take, but I'm simply engaging with your arguments.