@gordoooo_z @AmishSuperModel , gotcha. In the USA under Reagan, we massively gutted public healthcare services, and for the most part, services are unavailable. 6-12 months would be an awesome improvement, but yes, that can be massively improved on too.

@gordoooo_z @JonKramer Let me clarify for you both, not that this isn’t a healthy debate.

The tweet meant that America doesn’t have the market cornered on mental illness, WE HAVE A GUN PROBLEM!

@AmishSuperModel @JonKramer That was not at all unclear. I would say "it shouldn't even need to be said" but clearly it does, and clearly it always has, but clearly it may not matter what anybody says about it. Is the gun control debate even about guns anymore?

It's more about whose side you're on. Meanwhile actual people are being actually shot with actual bullets while monied people in high places argue about their favourite colour.

@gordoooo_z @AmishSuperModel , it should be noted who does the shooting. Despite having the same access to guns, women do not commit mass murders or gun crimes. It isn't "the guns". It IS young conservative men. We seem to ignore this, I'm guessing because it isn't politically correct to make the observation. But this is real. The next mass shooter (killing strangers) will be a young white Christian male. This can't be ignored.

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z I am NOT disagreeing with either of you. Testosterone-fueled shootings run rampant in America. Crazy white males and mass shootings draw big media, but urban crime is constant. Either way, the problem is EASY ACCESS TO GUNS! Whether it’s urban gangs, mental health, or males—the issue is easy access to guns! Check where the guns come from in Chicago crimes.

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z , I disagree. If you take away guns, the root cause remains. The homicide rates won't change. The weapons will change, but I have never met anyone who said "I'm glad my child was beaten to death with a bat, instead of being shot", so I don't see this as an improvement. Nations that ban guns don't see drops in homicide rates. We need to refocus on the root cause. Even if that isn't politically correct.

The problem is disease. Mental disease, affecting young men. POTUS should order the CDC to investigate. But, this seems to be another 3rd rail of politics. It's just easier to blame guns...

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z OK, I agree with the toxic masculinity argument, but assholes are EVRYWHERE! It is only in America where we ensure that any idiot can get a gun.

@AmishSuperModel @JonKramer @gordoooo_z It's access to guns, together with our *culture*. Mental illness has nothing to do with it, unless you think it's a mental illness to be indoctrinated to think of human beings who live differently, look different, or hold differing opinions from yourself as subhuman and deserving of violence or execution.

I used to have to listen to my brother rant about how he wished he had a license to kill people he found annoying. He talked about how he would use a Luger pistol to execute people on the spot, Nazi style. A friend of his would go on about effing n-words, with various other claims and assertions I won't repeat. This isn't extraordinary rhetoric here in Texas. It's typical angry rural white male speak. They literally think that God is on their side, that other people are wrong and disgusting just for existing, and that this gives them the right to execute them. The only thing that stops them is the potential for the law to step in.

@hosford42 @AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z ya, I think feeling others are not worthy of existence is a mental illness. I'm not sure how anyone can think differently.

@JonKramer @AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z There are things that can go wrong with the brain that affect the mind, and then there are things that can go wrong with the mind itself. This would be the latter. Not your typical mental illness. Just fucked up beliefs.

@hosford42 @AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z I feel you are too kind.

@JonKramer @AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z It's not kind. I don't want those people grouped with me. I have generalized anxiety disorder and recurrent major depression. Those are real mental illnesses, and they don't make me want to shoot people. When you label moral failings as mental illnesses, you simultaneously excuse their behavior and falsely associate mental illness with violence. They are fascist pieces of shit. How is that for kind?

@hosford42 @AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z oh man... you have a valid argument... and I don't have a good answer ready.

I'm not sure I agree, in fact. I don't, but I don't have the capacity to articulate disagreement.

@JonKramer @AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z If a person gets depressed, and then acts depressed, is that part of who they are, or something that happens to them? You can imagine curing it, and they resume acting like their real self. It's not part of them. It's an illness.

If a person believes that other people don't matter, and then acts like other people don't matter, is that part of who they are, or something that happens to them? No amount of arguing or showing them the pain they cause will make them care about other human beings, if that isn't already there within them. It's part of them. It's not an illness.

What has you confused is the gray area, where someone has the seeds of care within them, but their upbringing or culture prevented that from being expressed. Those people can be reached, and we should try to reach them. You can say they are ill, in a way, but it's a bit of a contortion of the definition.

@JonKramer @AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z I choose to use a different word for those folks, because it is a different problem. It separates those who are dealing with problems of brain physiology from those who are dealing with being misled by problematic philosophies. Different problems, different outcomes, different solutions. I don't care much what you call them, as long as they aren't grouped together like you're doing. "Mental illness" is generic enough that it could technically be used to cover both, but we *shouldn't*, because in this case technically correct language actually degrades effective communication. They need different words, so people can easily see the difference. Otherwise, a lot of harm will be done.

@hosford42 @AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z I still am having significant difficulty forming my thoughts into words. Most of this difficulty stems from it being almost impossible, with a subject this volatile, to be sensitive enough to avoid unintention insults. This is not an attempt to dodge the subject. It IS an attempt to advise you that I disagree, and don't feel that any argument I have will be a) convincing to you, b) be a pleasant choice of conversation to you, c) be an effective use of time.

Just a small example of an argument: if we were to identify a 15 year old with a fixation on killing his classmates, and treated him as IF he was insane, would that cause any direct harm to anyone else who has a medical condition rendering them clinical insane? Or, is the best argument for direct harm the assumption that all insane people will be called potential mass killers?

Another point, I feel saying that mass killers are insane has a similar connotation, a similar logic, to saying "black lives matter." Responding with no, this other group is insane, not the killers sounds to me like responding with "white lives matter too." The second statement doesn't negate the 1st in either case, it just attempts to exclude the 1st group.

@JonKramer @AmishSuperModel obviously the gun itself isn't the root cause of gun violence. Somebody has to pull the trigger and there's definitely something in the water down there--nd in the last few years probably the milk, the grass, the air, I digress--but the fact is still that if you want to do the most damage with the most efficiency, well, an AR-15 seems like a pretty good choice*. Not too many of that style of weapon in Canada.

@JonKramer @AmishSuperModel *Or you know, a van or something, but I can think of a few practical reasons for having one of those on your driveway.

@gordoooo_z @AmishSuperModel it's hand guns that kill the most, and it isn't in the water, because women drink the same water.

It's young conservative men. Seriously. And ya, they occasionally drive vans into crowds. Or other cars. Women don't do that either. We are focused on the wrong thing. And that we are focused wrong is blatantly obvious.

It's a healthcare issue. Mental health.

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z Seriously, America’s gun deaths are simply a mental health issue? I don’t disagree it’s multifaceted, but the problem is our gun culture. I never said “take away the guns”! I said “easy access” was the problem. Do you have any idea how hard it is to red flag a 17 year old who can get easy access to a weapon on the streets or from his parent? How about we require license, registration, background check and insurance on every gun that changes hands?

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z , easy access is obviously not the problem. Women in America have easy access to guns, yet do not commit these atrocities. This is blatantly obvious. Our failure to address the mental health of the population that does do these crimes I BELIEVE is the root problem, but I advocate POTUS demanding that the CDC research this issue to be sure.

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z then, how do you explain that we are the only industrialized nation on the planet that has a problem with conservative white males and guns?

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z , again, I BELIEVE it to be a lack of mental health care. I stated that the very 1st post I made in this thread, and the last post before this one. I know it isn't access to guns. I know it isn't machine guns. I know it isn't immigrants. I also know as long as we blame something or someone it isn't, we will never address the problem. My deep suspicion is that systemic sexism and racism keeps us from honestly addressing the problem.

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z So, I’ll end this by saying stop “believing” it’s not America’s gun culture & easy access to deadly, military-grade weapons w/o universal background checks because women have same access to weapons as men although women (less than 2% worldwide) ever commit mass shootings. That argument is the same worldwide, but only the US has this problem consistently. As a mental health provider, I know we can’t counsel our way out of this mess. Do some research.

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z I have advocated that research for decades.

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z To whom?

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z , you. My congressman. My senators. My local committee man. The guy I met at a bar one night. My coworkers. My bosses. My employees.

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z OK, so just be careful before you flat-out disagree with someone because you “believe” or “think” something and the research HAS addressed those issues. Especially when you may be responding to people involved in that work.

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z , you honestly believe that the issue has been studied, and the root cause is "access"? Even when presented with the indisputable fact that women, 50% of the population, have equal access, and do not commit these atrocities?? And you refuse to consider other options? Am I understanding you correctly? This doesn't give you even some brief pause?? If I'm misunderstanding you, feel free to correct me. But I don't think I'm misreading your posts.

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z You’re right! America should simply ban guns from conservative white males. Get to work on that! Bye now!

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z I will say that nations with universal health-care, and access to weapons, do not have the same issues we have. This not proof it is a health care issue, but it's pretty damn persuasive.

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z There is no other industrialized nation on the planet with the prevalence of and ease of access to guns than the US.

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z , the Swiss have a sub machine gun in almost every home. Canadians have tons of rifles. Yes, the USA has the greatest access, and STILL women do not engage in atrocities.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Do you think American women DO commit mass shootings in numbers representative of their population numbers?

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z No, women have never been main perpetrators of violent crime, rape, wars, etc. But that is the same around the world. So assuming men are primary perpetrators worldwide, how does that explain America’s disparity in gun deaths? Are you assuming all Conservative White Males need therapy and that will solve the problem? We just red-flag them? You realize it’s those same folks fight Universal background checks?

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z I assume no solutions. I suggest it is very likely a lack of health care. I don't know providing healthcare will solve the problem, but I assume if it does, it will take several generations. Too bad we didn't start the process 50 years ago, eh? At this point, we refuse to even study the issue.

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z No, I asked who you advocated this study to?

@JonKramer @gordoooo_z Really?

https://namica.org/advocacy/criminal-justice-advocacy/the-truth-about-mental-health-and-gun-violence/

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z , I have no profit motive to lie...

@JonKramer @AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z

this implies that as many people engaged in trans-Atlantic travel BEFORE jet airliners made it really easy to do as AFTER jet airliners made it really easy to do.

That is, you are claiming that a technology that makes something really easy to do doesn't make it more likely or more common.

Which is trivially wrong.

Hand-guns and AR-15s etc make killing easy, and therefore common.

If you disagree, explain low trans-Atlantic travel before 1960 or so.

@AmishSuperModel @gordoooo_z , there are a surprising number of Canadians who own guns. There are a surprising number of Swiss that own sub machine guns. I think a major difference is universal healthcare systems. It may also be education, but that's a bit harder to nail down.