@zensaiyuki There are multiple free software implementations of BASIC and the Excel file format's successor ODF. Only two free software implementations remain of the full web platform, because it is too complex. Which one is more proprietary in practice?
HyperCard has been forgotten, sadly. It will probably conceptually form part of the base for whatever comes next.
HyperCard has been forgotten, sadly. It will probably conceptually form part of the base for whatever comes next.
@zensaiyuki @Shamar @nepfag @petit
Free software doesn't have to mean a design free-for-all.
HTML is fragmented and has market share because Worse Is Better, and it has been very productive. But we are not talking about what's more productive.
We are talking about what's conceptually clean, usable and programmable for the casual end user, grokkable. HTML is not it.
With what we have learned from over two decades of web, we are armed with the knowledge to create a Better Is Better alternative.
@grainloom @zenhack @xj9
Free software doesn't have to mean a design free-for-all.
HTML is fragmented and has market share because Worse Is Better, and it has been very productive. But we are not talking about what's more productive.
We are talking about what's conceptually clean, usable and programmable for the casual end user, grokkable. HTML is not it.
With what we have learned from over two decades of web, we are armed with the knowledge to create a Better Is Better alternative.
@grainloom @zenhack @xj9
@clacke @nepfag @petit @grainloom @Shamar @zensaiyuki @zenhack @xj9
> With what we have learned from over two decades of web, we are armed with the knowledge to create a Better Is Better alternative.
I'd like to offer a different perspective here, because I agree with everything in your toot/note until above point
the worse-is-better approach wins for the same reasons that Unix and Windows had won (in a way...), and why there are so many software developers and so few software engineers. in my opinion, that reason is: slightly worse is cheaper, but quicker to deliver
there were Lisp Machines, but they were killed by copyright, politics and perhaps more, while simpler equipment is still there. there was OS/2, but Win95 was quicker to roll out. there was VAX and VMS, there was Sun (long live ZFS!)...
so to deeliver anything sophisticated, we'll need to come up with something even better, even more ideal and cleaner, propose using it, and then have the clean-and-still-sophisticated alternative as a backup plan in case the ideal doesn't work out (because it won't)
one final thought: does the typical end-user want that Better? that Right Thing? I'm afraid they don't. they want it to be easy to use, with no thinking involved... and I don't want to see the results of programming without thinking...
> With what we have learned from over two decades of web, we are armed with the knowledge to create a Better Is Better alternative.
I'd like to offer a different perspective here, because I agree with everything in your toot/note until above point
the worse-is-better approach wins for the same reasons that Unix and Windows had won (in a way...), and why there are so many software developers and so few software engineers. in my opinion, that reason is: slightly worse is cheaper, but quicker to deliver
there were Lisp Machines, but they were killed by copyright, politics and perhaps more, while simpler equipment is still there. there was OS/2, but Win95 was quicker to roll out. there was VAX and VMS, there was Sun (long live ZFS!)...
so to deeliver anything sophisticated, we'll need to come up with something even better, even more ideal and cleaner, propose using it, and then have the clean-and-still-sophisticated alternative as a backup plan in case the ideal doesn't work out (because it won't)
one final thought: does the typical end-user want that Better? that Right Thing? I'm afraid they don't. they want it to be easy to use, with no thinking involved... and I don't want to see the results of programming without thinking...
@pfm @clacke @Shamar @grainloom @nepfag @petit @zenhack @zensaiyuki
> does the typical end-user want that Better? that Right Thing? I'm afraid they don't. they want it to be easy to use, with no thinking involved...
i personally have no interest in promoting this cultural attitude of not wanting to or needing to think. good tools make sense and are easy to use *once you understand how they are meant to be used*.
economies of scale often ruin perfectly good systems. i believe the DIY ethic is an important cultural attitude. very small groups of people should be able to leverage technology to accomplish complex tasks. things like plan 9 and scheme have persisted in small and weirdly productive communities for decades and i expect this to continue. it is very important to fight the slow drift towards complexity. i think small communities like this are important. i think fracturing is important.
> does the typical end-user want that Better? that Right Thing? I'm afraid they don't. they want it to be easy to use, with no thinking involved...
i personally have no interest in promoting this cultural attitude of not wanting to or needing to think. good tools make sense and are easy to use *once you understand how they are meant to be used*.
economies of scale often ruin perfectly good systems. i believe the DIY ethic is an important cultural attitude. very small groups of people should be able to leverage technology to accomplish complex tasks. things like plan 9 and scheme have persisted in small and weirdly productive communities for decades and i expect this to continue. it is very important to fight the slow drift towards complexity. i think small communities like this are important. i think fracturing is important.
@xj9 @pfm @Shamar @clacke @grainloom @nepfag @petit @zenhack @zensaiyuki
Yeah. Worse is Better is better for the mass market, for consumption. Just redefine success and create a programmable, composable, networked hyperweb for people who want it, and forget about a business model or revenue stream. If it's good, we'll all be contributing to its development after we retired. In a few decades, maybe someone makes some money off it. Good for them.
Yeah. Worse is Better is better for the mass market, for consumption. Just redefine success and create a programmable, composable, networked hyperweb for people who want it, and forget about a business model or revenue stream. If it's good, we'll all be contributing to its development after we retired. In a few decades, maybe someone makes some money off it. Good for them.
@notclacke
>programmable, composable, networked hyperweb
What''s the closest?
@grainloom @pfm @clacke @zensaiyuki @zenhack @nepfag@pl.smuglo.li @Shamar @xj9 @petit
Follow
I think there is an inherent flaw here.
We need secure and programmable distributed operating systems as the #Web surrogate is insecurable and highly inefficient.
But no system can be secured if it mix data trasfer and code distribution.
Even just data transfer alone can produce weird machines. But any protocol or format that mix programs and contents is dumb and dangerous. People should always be aware of the difference between programs they WANT to RUN and informations they want to LEARN.
Even if code IS data and data IS code, their usage as code or as data should always be a conscious decision of all the human that it affect.
@notclacke @grainloom @pfm @clacke @zensaiyuki @zenhack @xj9 @petit
