@amerika @arteteco @freemo There is that, and the self-perpetuating dogmas. I've read that if you're getting a degree in theoretical physics and want to work, you need to do string theory, not loop quantum gravity or anything.
Still, peer review and others reproducing hard-science should continually preen the knowledge base, if it works right.

@TradeMinister

there is an expectation that you know certain theories and schools of though before you go onto more obscure or complex ones for sure. but that isnt dogma. Studying a thing doesnt inherently create dogma for the thing.

I study religion in some depth and while there is plenty floating around in the way of dogma when it comes to religion I have never adopted that dogma because I only study the topic, I dont adopt the faith.

I also never experienced teachers pushing too much dogma. Generally they care if you prove your point using logic and data, they dont force your conclusions. Most teachers not just accept dissenting thought they encourage it and want you to try to disprove theories, they even tend to promote projects where you attempt to do so.

the only reason scientific thought tends to align is because we have all went through the science and tried to disprove it and ultimately found we were wrong and could not.

@amerika @arteteco

@freemo @amerika @arteteco Consider the case of the 1918 influenza and Bacillus Haemophilus, an excellent example of dogma wasting careers and a decade or so of research. I'm sure that still happens, and I expect it will happen to String Theory in the fullness of time: my (unprofessional) guess is it will not be fundamental even if it is accurate at certain energies.

@TradeMinister

Not sure that is a great example.. Your not talking so much about dogma or wasted careers as you are talking about observing scientific progress where competing ideas and theories are over time refined and confirmed.

@amerika @arteteco

@freemo @amerika @arteteco You should maybe read up on it. One eminent German scientist insisted for decades that that irrelevant bacteria caused influenza, so at least one career and decades of work were wasted trying to prove that.

@TradeMinister
I am very familiar with it. Individuals have wrong theories all the time, and thats how science is suppose to work, thats how we learn we are wrong and ultimately what is correct.

@amerika @arteteco

@freemo @TradeMinister @arteteco

And every generation, we find out that settled science from the previous was nonsense.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-to-fat.html

@amerika @freemo @arteteco Which is a good thing and how science should work. Unfortunately the weight of Authority and control of funding mean that the scientific process is frequently impeded by old senile fucks who should have packed it in long ago but are Important so they control the funding and research: office politics wins again.

@TradeMinister

Sometimes funding can derail science and create some issues, no doubt.. A prime example of that is the whole autism vaccine nonsense where basically someone paid a bunch of money to a small minority of crooked scientists to produce a easily debunked paper. Even though the whole of the scientific community quickly rejected the paper its very existence was used as fodder by some for years to come. So yes a person with some money can certainly use psudo-science to cause some harm.

But these sorts of situations never get very far, they certainly dont pass any comprehensive peer review, and generally is not what we see from the majority of the scientific community.

@amerika @arteteco

@freemo @TradeMinister @arteteco

Lots of areas are not explored because they are politically incorrect.

Let's look at IQ research.

@amerika

There has been a great deal of research around IQ, even going so far as to investigate IQ differences among cultures we think of as different races, alot of that research is ongoing. Better IQ tests designed to be suited for tribal cultures with little contact with the outside world have been developed over the years for exactly that reason.

The issue is simply certain assertions have been made so often in the past and debunked so thuroughly, and almost always done under extreme bias, that most scientists arent going to rehash the same old nonsense unless someone actually comes up with a compelling high quality science, which is rarely the case in certain areas.

Every once in a while I come across some moron with a clearly racial bias trying to argue blacks are inherently lower IQ than whites, and every time when i give them the time and effort to review the evidence of their claim it is completely laughable the lack of evidence and the amount of bias they employed to collect it. Obviously when 99% of people arguing a particular point are always crackpots even if there is a valid point somewhere among them it isnt going to as easily get attention. Extraordinary claims take extraordinary evidence.

@TradeMinister @arteteco

@freemo @amerika @TradeMinister @arteteco so I have no interest in arguing that there are racial IQ differences between different groups, especially that black people may be less smart. That said those sorts of studies are the kind of study that you couldn’t publish if you found anything other than no difference, and where the researchers are only looking for one answer. I don’t think we can say we know whether there are IQ differences, and it might be tempting to think it’s possible since IQ is in part determined by genetics, and genetics vary between races.

@manarock

Hard to say. I mean we see studies that suggest black people have genetic deficiencies other races do not all the time. for example it is well known and established science that blacks have a much higher incidence of sickle cell anemia than non-blacks. Despite this effectively looking like they are genetically inferior in that regard, and thus would be something you might think couldn't get published, it tends to be free published and fairly well accepted science.

The reason such studies stand little chance of getting published isnt so much about the biases in the industry, its about the fact that we have tested the hypothesis for over a 100 years in great depth and never once have found anything to support that assertion. So naturally its not something you will see getting published unless there is some pretty solid and reproducible data, and there never is.

@amerika @TradeMinister @arteteco

@freemo

If I can chip my humble 50 satoshis on this, African people have way higher genetic diversity than the rest of humankind, not having experienced the bottleneck from getting out of Africa.
It's easier, therefore, to find higher diversity of problems too, and the sampling can wildly affect the results of any research. Talking about "black people" or Africans is really like putting together all the rest of humankind, papuasians, native americans, latins, australian aborigenal people etc, and say "see, they have this and that".

My main point is, we can't talk about "African people" as a group and pretend it makes sense.

This is something that until more recent genetic discovery was not well known, so a lot of studies even from a recent past have a huge bias in that sense

@manarock @amerika @TradeMinister

@arteteco @freemo @manarock @TradeMinister

You can talk about any group that has something in common. For example, we say "humans do X or Y"

@amerika

He never said you cant talk about africans as a group, in some respects you can.. but as he pointed out talking about africans as a group is such a huge biodiverse group that it would be like asians, indians, russians, and europeans as all one group and making generalizations about them. Sure you can get away with that some of the time, but with a group that diverse more often than not it will be far too general to be useful.

@TradeMinister @arteteco @manarock

@freemo @amerika @arteteco @manarock Ha! There you have completely dished yourself, quite exploded, busted. The orthodox theory of recent human evolution has Eurasians, meaning all non-Africans, descended from a mixture of what would have been relatively small and highly-selected groups making the difficult journey to the Caucasus area and breeding with the Neanderthal and Denisovan which evolved there and nowhere else AFAIK. And of course mitochondrial DNA and other genetic evidence supports this.
So in reality there are not three or four subspecies, there are two: sub-Saharan Africans and the recent descendants of Africans imported as livestock, and literally everyone else.

@TradeMinister

You clearly have no clue what the technical definition of sub-species is then, which is about what I'd expect from you to be honest.

@amerika @arteteco @manarock

@freemo @amerika @arteteco @manarock You are a windbag of politically-motivated assertions about data and terminology with little or no data offered to support anything you say. I have offered Murray, mitochondrial and other DNA, and you have done nothing but whine about cultures affecting IQ tests to avoid the blatantly obvious fact that American Blacks have grown up speaking something like English, with the same media and so forth, and still cling to the bottom of society and most metrics while dark-skinned non-English-speaking Indio-stock Latinos come here, climb right over the Blacks and their kids speak actual English, not 'Ebonics', and are on their way to the middle class.
Blacks don't just fail in comparison to Whites, where one could whine about slavery forever and I'm sure you would;
they fail in comparison to everyone, including Indios who were also enslaved and cruelly oppressed.

@TradeMinister @freemo @amerika @arteteco @manarock However I don't think that IQ is everything. Africans are less prone to bullshit. Europeans will swallow whatever bullshit the jews come up with, as long as it is "polite" and fancy. In many ways black peoples (excluding niggers/former slaves) are wiser.

@mystik @amerika @arteteco @freemo @manarock As a high (not genius) IQ person, I can say it definitely isn't everything.
There is much to be admired in my redneck logger friends and in Mexican workers, virtues and strengths they have I can't begin to touch.

@TradeMinister

hahahah, he thinks he is high IQ... how cute. This is some first rate kruger-dunning syndrome right here.

@mystik @amerika @arteteco @manarock

@freemo @mystik @amerika @arteteco @manarock Please, oh please, continue; the meme and this thread won't be complete until you call me Putin and literally H****r.
Husky_1604165364724_DKJKWQCTHF.…
Husky_1604165423739_LUJELC8S68.…

@TradeMinister

Nah, you are far too insignificant to be comparable to them in the least. Just an insignificant, grumpy, and not too bright, racist fool, little more.

@mystik @amerika @arteteco @manarock

@freemo @mystik @amerika @arteteco @manarock
Husky_1604167199917_HS36EIKVDI.…

@TradeMinister @freemo @amerika @arteteco @manarock This is your brain on ad hominem.

@mystik

Not ad honimen when its literally true.

To quote him from earlier in the conversation " I just love it when they argue all races are identical despite obvious empirical facts like smart Negroes being about as rare as stupid North Asians."

https://freespeechextremist.com/objects/03cac52d-1632-48e3-b799-afd4cef4fe7a

@arteteco @manarock @TradeMinister @amerika

@freemo @mystik @arteteco @manarock @TradeMinister

Let's see, North Asian average is somewhere around 110 and African (Negroid) average is somewhere around 80-90.

@amerika @mystik @TradeMinister @freemo @manarock

do you have a source for it? I'm not in the psychology field, so I am not very up to date with researches

@arteteco @amerika @mystik @freemo @manarock You should look at the work of Charles Murray, packed with studies. IQ correlates strongly with things like higher earnings (no surprise) but also correlates strongly negatively with things like criminality and out-of-wedlock birth (who knew?).
It does not focus on race at all, but does show studies that human breeds perform differently on.

@arteteco

Just to clarify this dude (who has been excessively racist with his comments earlier in this thread) uses words like "breed" and "subspecies" in a way that is completely ignorant of the scientific definition of those terms. Apparently he things black people are a different "subspecies" from humans and now he is calling them a different "breed"... I wouldnt really trust much of what he says considering he hasnt even come to a point where he understands the most basic terminology.

@TradeMinister @mystik @amerika @manarock

@freemo @arteteco @TradeMinister @mystik @manarock

Subspecies just means a different variant, like "cultivar."

@amerika

No a variety from a cultivar is most certainly not a sub species and is explicitly recognized as a category that exists BELOW subspecies.

@mystik @TradeMinister @arteteco @manarock

@freemo @mystik @TradeMinister @arteteco @manarock

Nonsense. We can say that different groups of the same species evolved for different purposes.

That makes the different races cabbage, kohlrabi, broccoli, etc.

Subspecies is a similar distinction: any group within a species that is genetically distinct.

Since races reproduce themselves, race qualifies.

Absolutely zero credible arguments have been advanced against race, which is why ALL deniers fall back on "but muh consensus" or "but we banned publication of this data, so it doesn't exist."

@amerika

Species arent defined that way... There are many aspects that are considered for a species but the most common one, at least among mammals, is their ability to mate and produce viable offspring.

As long as two people can have sex and their chance of having a viable child who is fertile is the same as the general population, then they are the same species.

For example Horse and Donkey are considered different species because if they mate and have a child the child (a mule) is less fertile than either of its parents.

Therefore the most obvious and glaring reason a cabbage and a brocoli are difference species is because they can not cross pollinate and mate.

@mystik @TradeMinister @arteteco @manarock

@freemo @mystik @TradeMinister @arteteco @manarock

You could try to have sex with a turnip, if you are a broccoli:

https://www.torontomastergardeners.ca/askagardener/cross-breeding-members-of-brassica-cabbage-family/

@amerika @freemo @arteteco @manarock @mystik was it "W" who hated Broccoli? Was there a president who hated Brussels Sprouts? Reasons enough to have sex with both of them.

@TradeMinister

I'd love to make one thing clear here, in case it's not obvious to everyone: species do not exist. Subspecies do not exist. Phyla do not exist. Those are groups we make to make sense and get an order out the immense complexity of the living creatures. In the end, there are only individuals, and there is no definition of "species" that does not have exceptions or faults. Depends on context and aim of the analysis

That is why I push a lot to use a consensus based, conventional nomenclature: otherwise we'd go crazy. And I'm tellin' ya, those taxonomists oftentimes are already kinda there

@mystik @amerika @freemo @manarock