@barefootstache These kinds of learning curves / time-holes is why I discontinued my time in this realm (without bashing it all too much).

If it wasn't bad enough at the start with trial and error with hardware also not working (and probably my brain power), it was all one big consideration "should I throw myself at this stuff... more than I already have?" and so I answered that and even if I was clever think I save my time somewhat.

I'm happy about the decision and sometimes every-changing playing fields.

Although xammp / lamp stuff and it's components has stayed quite standard / robust / decent (but really I have little experience even to say here).

We have to spend our somehow... And things that aren't robust / simple / always changing I think is how people go off suggestions...

@freeschool the thing you dislike is the thing I like. Although it seems like it costs time and patience, in the end lots of the experience and knowledge one gathers can be applied onto other fields as well.

Plus the never ever goal of making it easier and faster is always out there.

Invest time now to save time later.

@barefootstache
This is kind of the mentality I mean, where honestly tech minded people (or just common to humans) have to chase something... even if it's pointless..

The tech tree is exactly "the never-ending toolkit" or boys with new toys... and pretty much is almost just changing the same things like the colours or positions of themes / front-ends etc... else it's skimming all the permutations with and without funding for commercial purposes.

What I've seen lately that amazed me for example (so it doesn't sound like gloom and doom) is replacing BIOS for laptops or reprogramming old stuff at the raw level for something really useful (and only before the new has been hijacked or developed for 'evil' type things). Everything is much less wow as isn't really a game-changer...

...so yes the "never-ending" "easier" and "faster" kind of things makes what you say a bit self-evident for me in what you say... as a friendly classification of what I hear because it tops off proportionately and loses achievement *if* people are chasing after knocking off few milliseconds off their program, re-doing it all the time, bashing out the same thing we had during modem days but just bloated and more taken over by other elements (outside our control), and then "easier" just means people changing things again in another way for front end users or lemmings,... so pretty much just more people doing the same en masse. Lemmings too that are like moths to light and actually weight heavier on the tree branch actually risking to break it (and the planet) from energy consumption and bad types of code combination/commercial sites (most of them).

Again probably does feels more powerful and achieving as individual and I know you are more able but I'd be happy to hear example how you feel it's changed the dynamic in your world more than a kind of toy or tinkering or efficient assistant. Something at least on the bar of change for the world (I also think tech by default is not allowed to change much since it's either go stamp by emperors out there or not... or if they realise later it could really give freedom they curve it, unfund it, another company buys and puts it to sleep) ... I can say at the least the humble problem solving near to what I think is worthy is talking to people and sorting our / their alignment (harmonising) and that is possibly the best thing I can meekly say in retiring to that even though it should be some kind of normal (which shows existing hostile / sanitised environment) *probably* better than this long way round tech thing considering we had or have everything now... or those with resources are never going to share it / let people grow (tech or no tech)

So meddling with machines more than working with that equation and people away from the way of authoritarianism or whatever... does depends on your own 'life project' or life aims... I don't have 1 answer but I know there is a stereotype of people just fiddling with things just to help allieviate the pain or trauma of living (i.e what they don't allow to happen/have constrained and concreted over). Community is struggling across the board / tech included if I'm not wrong. How many projects came and went.. people problems <--- not the best project but that is where I see terms like "speed" "efficiency" "easy" as people more worthy not just for an nice effect or technical achievement soon forgotten.
Better people is what we want... STEM generally doesn't do that.

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Perhaps I'm being unforgiving but actually not much has changed other than change itself...!

We get things, we use them mostly as users
If you're lucky you get a good admin... who maybe has time to change the world :)

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Try not to feel it's you / the read I mean more than specifically what I think is more over-powering:

- we are addicts or have to put time into something... we're dogs and have to run... somewhere...

- we never measured the real waste of times and if we did we might reconsider the time holes (minus the nostalgia of 'new tech')

So what I think overall is this whole genre and scene is inherit in it's nature of it "yes can be useful" but it's based on "success is built on top of 1000 fails" and sucking mass of nerds / fly-to-windscreens type stuff mostly for other people to steal or repackage... (and some cool in the middle)... so it's a judgement call here for each of us but yeah if you can personally do something - great. But overall the mass data load and traffic is sickening. And people think that is normal. We were doing a million times better with modems (leveraging mind more than unclever speed / storage from USA)

I've often thought 10 people really together every day could change the world... but that seems hard at the moment and basically needs a reason like EU funding before they really find reason (OK NLNet type stuff is good)

So besides the bell curve of real innovative (games and other things) the rest I feel has ill effect obviously as it's not aligned for my thoughts about life (Mastodon and Jitsi excluded as things that work- so what else do you need as major weapons to sort our the what is near-impossible to sort like the power-struggle we're in?) ...

Still a lot of waste / changing of the same variables over and over and over. Install, uninstall. Download. delete. Spending of time and energy might not be so bad if we were actually talking more as a culture (not trash talking or propaganda but for something really new... like even talking itself as reform!)

Trying to unite people seems my thing which even Tech falls short since it's about people doing those things over and over for the most part. Just drinking coffee and trying to leverage re-written code or re-inventing wheels.

So measurably in my small brain I'm unsure about everything else (with or without tech) if it's really not people sorting out their own problems and mentality which takes time, then STEM isn't a thing design to help that...
I did propose STEM add / update itself else fall into more war-like cycles and number dealings of human, something like STEM-S (Socially) or STEM-C (consciously) but not many are going to understand that right now from STEM worlds! It's like a totally different dimension / viewpoint of world sometimes.

Finally I appreciate you're having to skim some of this but I also see a genuine massive miscalculation in:

"Invest time now to save time later."
This sounds like a gamble...

and if you see and know what you know now (and what we already having to deal with for centuries then the whole 'saving time' later might actually be you occupying your time in less-needed and less-useful ways now. And for most of us (me included) I'm 'killing time' or asking people in order to find something more than that.

So this whole thing about "save time later" might actually be a time-kill in itself because it's questionable benefits what is 'saving' of time later and what you can probably still can do now BUT it does also rely on your own answer of 'what you think is going to save you and people" or "what your purpose in life is' (please don't say code lol!)
I don't have a total clue more than people as head of problems... and I know repeating the same things using science, tech, engineering, maths (good and bad/banks) is not doing much here. Most of the puzzles means solving the people and their mindset which often eradicates any benefits with tech (especially if they need 'more' understanding to really use it well). The user AND others out there exploiting everything are doing so much damage, it's hard to justify anything more that does do what we need.

Can you think of anything else you would want?
achievement *if* people are chasing after knocking off few milliseconds off their program, re-doing it all the time, bashing out the same thing we had during modem days but just bloated and more taken over by other elements (outside our control), and then "easier" just means people changing things again in another way for front end users or lemmings,... so pretty much by en masse.

Again probably does feels more powerful and achieving as you are more able but I'd be happy to hear example how you feel it's changed the dynamic in your world more than a kind of toy or tinkering or efficient assistant rather than any bar of change the world (I also think tech released arguably is by default not allowed to change much or if they realise later curve it or unfund it) ... I can say I talked to people and that is well possibly the best thing I can see hear to do even though that should be some kind of normal than this long way round tech thing... meddling with machines more than working with people (the way of authoritarianism or whatever)... not meaning to deflect to that topic but yeah depends on you 'project' or life aims... community is struggling across the board (tech included if I'm not wrong)

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Perhaps I'm being unforgiving but actually not much has changed other than change itself...!
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Try not to feel it's you I mean more than specifically what I think is more over-powering than you which is more:

- we are addicts or have to put time into something... we're dogs and have to run... somewhere...

- we never measured the real waste of times (and we don't want to) and if we did we might have reconsidered the time holes (minus the nostalgia of 'new tech')

So what I think overall is this whole genre and scene is inherit in it's nature of it "yes can be useful" but it's based on "success is built on top of 1000 fails" and sucking mass / fly to winds-screens mostly for other people to steal or repackage... no great but yeah if you can personally do something - great.

I've often thought 10 people really together every day could change the world... but that seems hard at the moment and basically needs EU funding before they really commit (OK NLNet etc is good too)

So besides the bell curve of real innovative (games and other things) the rest I feel has ill effect obviously as it's not aligned for my thoughts about life (Mastodon and Jitsi excluded- what else do you need as major weapons?) ...

Still a lot of waste / changing of the same variables over and over and over. Install, uninstall. Download. delete.

Trying to unite people seems my thing which even Tech falls short since it people do those things over and over. So measurably I'm unsure about everything else (with or without tech) if it's really not people sorting out their own problems and mentality which takes time and isn't not a STEM thing (I did propose STEMS or STEM-C (consciously) but nobody is going to understand that!

Finally I appreciate you having to skim some of this but I also see a possible a massive miscalculation:

"Invest time now to save time later." sound like a gamble...

and if you see and know what you know know (and what we already have and can do etc) then the whole 'saving time' later might actually be you occupying your time in less-needed things now.
So this whole thing about "save time later" might actually be a time kill in itself for questionable benefits or 'saving' of time (which is probably what you still can do now and also relies on your own answer of 'what you think is going to save people" or "what your purpose in life is ' and those things I don't have a clue for but I know repeating the same things when you have most of the puzzles means solving the people and mind part probably which often eradicates any benefits instantly with tech by user AND others out there exploiting everything)

Will look over and re-edit this soon

@freeschool there is a lot to unravel here, though will only tackle the notion of

> Invest time now to save time later
> Seems like a gamble...

Assuming you live to see your profit of time saved. Then we can go to basic examples.

1. Back in the day, you would write down someone's phone number. If you wanted to call them, then you would have to find that piece of paper and enter in the phone number to call them. A small time improvement would be to memorize the number.

With today's technology you can just say whom you want to call and the work is done for you.

From back then to now small increments had to be made either personally and/or technologically.

2. Assuming you had the technical know-how. Let's say you walk to the store and back for groceries and the distance is 5km. It would take you a good hour there and another one back.

Over time you realize that if you had a vehicle you could do the trip faster, so you build yourself a skateboard. Let's say you had to invest 8h of work to shave off 10min in each direction. (You can also use this technology for anything else you would normally have to walk.) So after the 24th trip you would be saving time.

Since you have get your groceries by foot, this means you are easily going 3-5 times a week. So in the best case, a bit over a month, it would be paid off.

Now let's say that the skateboard is not doing it for you and want something faster like a bike. You calculated that it will take you like 100h to build and your time would drop down to 20min in either direction. It would pay itself off in 100 days.

Though at the same time you can now travel further and it's more convenient.

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It is true that it could be a gamble, though sometimes I willing to bargain with it too get a peace of mind. And other times I add more time to feel more secure.

It all depends on what you value more.

Time is something that you can't give back or save, so the best thing you can do is make the tasks as convenient as possible.

Being safe or secure only works if you invest time. And all is fairly doable as long as you are not connected to the internet. On the internet one small hiccup can cost you everything.

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Now on the other side of "time saved". Let's say you save 10min doing a specific task. That doesn't directly align with that you will spend that extra time efficiently. For all you know you will goof off that time. So in that case one could suggest that spending the extra 10min on the specific task might have been better.

@barefootstache
good points but perhaps you've got further out then I would suppose because I would still have some of what we have now, just not so hard and overalapped or pointless...

So err... websites great- know who to call
A bit faster net ok.

And then the others stuff is technically bloat or what needs to be done manually (you want it you go get it rather than networks of delivery vans and empty planes rotating to encourage a different lifestyle)
Again maybe vans yes but the next point is key

By doing things the long way around we learn or just are more humble! All your writing wreaks of trying to calculate such shaving of time... ok skateboard or bicycle I can admit... but the whole car to do point less things and even block out the journey to the shops is horrible over-kill... and yeah people can still walk if it wasn't for those damn roads and lights (again another example)

The whole saving regularly ignores the damage to environment and change of lifestyle (pure roads everywhere, maybe not like American but not grass and just concrete is it's own efficient example)

My own summary is that you're a mathematician (L: although the rucking / running with backpack is certainly an unexpected addition to any maths-person stereotype :)

I appreciate you put for one example after the horizontal line that people can good off also after saving (and actually that burns time / wastes it as something else has been leverage and eventually infrastructure feeds that or the environment)

So I'll stick with the major take-way being the environment overall and no need to rollback everything - I could have waited another 5 years for many things if we didn't do it the authoritarian financial steroided commercial way and got the minds right of the designers of 'urban planning' who now have even more access / power than we do.

I do like you're constant flick back to efficiency - very cultural for today while most overlook the whole environmental thing or supply chain dragging down the world in exchange (not saying you don't see it but you like the maths and I can't knock you for it as we've covered other topics well).