🇳🇱
Shout out to that time a long-time friend of a friend who always had a crush on me was devastated when I called her out (and ultimately cut her off) for hitting her child.
No one is going to beat their child in public and expect to not get an ear full out of me. I dont care who you are.
@freemo haaaaaaavvvvveeeee you been to Asia? 😏 Or mexico is probably closer to you where beating your child is totally normal thing.
@dashrandom I have. And being normal doesnt change how wrong it is.
@freemo or perhaps not all right and wrongs are objective but subjective?
Culture plays a big role in determining if some behaviours are socially acceptable or not.
Nah, thats just an excuse we tell ourselves.
While one action may be right or wrong given the nuance of the situation for sure, it is not a cultural thing.. What is wrong is that which causes harm and suffering, that is an objective measure even if that suffering may have to some degree cultural components.
For example torturing someone for pleasure is **always** objectively wrong, culture accepting that wont change it, it just make you more naive to doing wrong. No cultural perspectives can change the fact that act is one that causes net suffering.
Same goes back to beating little kids. No amount of cultural acceptance removes the suffering and harm inflicted and thus is objectively and universally wrong regardless of culture.
@freemo what if beating kids prevents them from doing things that will cause them even greater harm in future? As far as I know, most parents don't beat their kids out of anger but rather to discipline them.
If that discipline prevents even greater self destructive behaviour in future (e.g. playing with fire, running with scissors, etc), is it not justified? Keep in mind that it takes time for children to understand concepts of right and wrong or "this could kill/hurt me or others".
> what if beating kids prevents them from doing things that will cause them even greater harm in future?
What if unicorns shat rainbows? It doesnt, so the what if regarding something that isnt true doesnt mean much.
> As far as I know, most parents don't beat their kids out of anger but rather to discipline them.
Thats just a lie they tell themselves so they can justify their beatings. And even if it were true it wouldnt make the beatings any less abhorrent.
When parents beat their kids "out of disciplin" what they are really saying is they beating them out of frustration and anger that their kids arent listening, nothing more. They just need to pretend they are doing it for altrusitic reasons. Even most murderers need to find an excuse for what they do and usually find a way to excuse it as a greater good... it isnt.
> If that discipline prevents even greater self destructive behaviour in future
It doesnt, quite the opposite, it creates adults with deep rooted psychological issues who are likely to have all sorts of functioning problems. Worse yet since they are never taught to cope with their issues they likely lack the skills to even address their now underlying issues, or even the self awareness to recognizet he problem. They likely just go on to beat their own children and continue the cycle.
> is it not justified?
Since that doesnt happen this is a moot question.
> Keep in mind that it takes time for children to understand concepts of right and wrong or "this could kill/hurt me or others".
No it doesnt... by the time a kid is able to learn from a beating they are able to reason. Regardless even if this isnt true there are plenty of punishments that dont require you to beat your child.
@freemo @dashrandom I think coming up with silly caricatures of people you disagree with rarely ends up being useful.
good thing no one did that here then. Feel free to explain your criticisms however if you want to have a productive conversation.
@freemo @dashrandom I think you know what I mean. 😂 You're assuming people you disagree with are doing what they do with the worst possible motives, rather than for the reason they say they're doing it. You're doing this for no discernible reason. It's weird.
Here's one of several problems with it: I don't know, maybe Dash thinks corporal punishment is a responsible way to raise kids, and here maybe you have a chance to convince someone! But instead, you blow the opportunity: you come off like an unhinged person, certainly unlikely to convince anyone who knows *very well* that they personally use corporal punishment because they honestly believe it is the best way to keep their kid from running with scissors.
Even if someone punch their kids with the GOOD MOTIVES, the kids are still likely will grow psychologically injured, so if they think beating kids is good anyway, i recommend these people to stop complaining about crazy nazi mass shootings 🙂
Agreed, their motives for beating their kids doesnt really change the equation anyway.. either they are aware that they are abusive horrible people who should have their kids taken away from them, or they arent aware of it... What excuses a child beater tells themselves, and believes really matters very little. So even if it were a factual excuse it would not change anything about my judgements or them being deserving of punishment (the adults who do the beating).
Another important point.. you said:
> anyone who knows very well that they personally use corporal punishment because they honestly believe it is the best way to keep their kid from running with scissors
As I stated, I do think parents genuinely lie to themselves and believe the lie that they do it for the "greater good"... I said that ready. So yes the assumption is they "know" they are doing it with good intent, its still a lie and there is some part of them that is fully aware thats not why they are doing it. But people are just too good at lying to themselves.
So yea i fully believe they are convinced they do it for "disciplin" even though it is lie both to themselves and others.
@freemo @ech my parents beat me growing up. I don't think it was done for bad reasons for the majority of the time.
I'm not a child beater (not yet anyway). I was the beaten child and I think getting beat did me good. Most of my friends I know grew up getting beaten by their parents. Most of them don't look back at the beatings with trauma. Conversely, some kids who don't get beat as children turn out to be good-for-nothings or criminals.
Culture and context is important. But sure, you do you
As I said, I expect you to have that opinion... When you beat a kid they tend to be quite subservient tot he views of the parent, its a tremendously powerful form of brain washing.
You are also talking to a person who comes from a gamily who bleives strongly in spankings for disciplin and I myself was also beat as a child. Thankfully as a result of that beating I left home and moved out on my own at 15 to get away fromt he abuse... so I am more the exception than the rule as someone who isnt broken by that beating but instead stands up for himself. I also told my mom I'd punch her int he fucking face if she ever tried laying a hand on me again once I was old enough to defend myself... and I happily did.
Can you back that up?
Ask ChatGPT "What mental problems has psychiatric studies found in children growing up with corporal punishment?"
Long answer, pointing out that
a. it doesn't affect children equally,
b. is on-going research
c. Many experts advice against it.
List of issues; Aggression and Conduct Problems, Anxiety and Depression, Lower Self-Esteem, Increased Risk of Substance Abuse, Poor Parent-Child Relationships, Long-Term Psychological Effects
While I certainly agree with ChatGPT here we should refrain from using it as a scholarly source as it has a horrific tendency to get a lot of details wrong too.
as long asyou take it with a whole heap of salt I have no problem with that :)
@ech @dashrandom
> You’re assuming people you disagree with are doing what they do with the worst possible motives, rather than for the reason they say they’re doing it. You’re doing this for no discernible reason. It’s weird.
Nah you have it backwards. I have witnessed people beating their kids universally having the worst possible motives, without a single exception. As such I came to the conclusion to disagree with their actions.
> Here’s one of several problems with it: I don’t know, maybe Dash thinks corporal punishment is a responsible way to raise kids, and here maybe you have a chance to convince someone! But instead, you blow the opportunity: you come off like an unhinged person, certainly unlikely to convince anyone who knows very well that they personally use corporal punishment because they honestly believe it is the best way to keep their kid from running with scissors.
If seeing people who beat kids as bad people with bad motives comes across as "unhinged" I'd suggest **you** or anyone who might think that is more likely to be the unhinged person and just projecting.
You also assume my goal is to convince someone of something and to use less honest language to manipulate them, hiding my actual opinions and giving a fake persona in the hopes of convincing someone... My goal is not to convince anyone, and I damn well have no intention of manipulating people by hading my unadulterated opinion in order to get a more favorable reaction. My only goal is to share my opinions, and their reasoning. I dont expect a child beater to ever be convinced, if they are great, if they arent its par for the course.