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Shout out to that time a long-time friend of a friend who always had a crush on me was devastated when I called her out (and ultimately cut her off) for hitting her child.
No one is going to beat their child in public and expect to not get an ear full out of me. I dont care who you are.
And in private doesn't make it less evil!
Some people have wondered why (for instance) Sweden had so few (until recently) murders, compared to (for instance) USA. I think part of it is that "disciplining children" (by physical or mental violence) has been denounced for many generations, and illegal since (I think) the 1960s.
Good communities start by stopping violence against children.
For sure, i would call it out in private too.. In this situation she had done it in public and a bunch of people int he resteraunt gave her shit.. she came to me to complain how she was "disiplining" her kid in public and how she got in trouble.... this was when i learned she hit her kid and i lost it. I didnt see the actual abuse, she was coming to me to tell me how she was "unfairly" criticized for hitting her kid. My response was "good, they should have criticized you, your lucky thats all they did, stop beating your child"
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist Was it a beating, or a spanking?
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist I suppose I should have asked if you thought there was a difference between the two lol
@realcaseyrollins I mean your the one asking the question.
to me a spanking is just a very specific type of beating where you are inflicting pain on the child by beating them on the ass.
I think parents mostly use it as a euphemism for beating their child without needing to admit they actually beat their child.
Does it matter? The long-term trauma in the child is not so much "amount of pain", but the betrayal of the parents, who are their only source of protection, love and comfort.
Yea the fact that your parents employ effectively torture techniques (albeit it in lighter form) to get compliance is just disgusting... We have abolished it throughout most of the modern of world but people still think its ok to use pain and abuse to control your child...
+bonifartius 𒂼𒄄
@freemo @niclas @realcaseyrollins @AmpBenzScientist now we only need to not use the equivalent of white torture with all the psychological abuse happening which often is white washed by childcare textbooks etc.
@freemo @niclas @realcaseyrollins @AmpBenzScientist ah, it's how psychological torture is called in german because you don't get your hands dirty. guess that one doesn't translate :)
why i say this is that many ideas still pushed in one form or another are rooted in people like johanna haarer (i'm sure there are equivalents around the globe):
> In 1934 one of the most powerful publishing houses of that period released a guidebook by Johanna Haarer – one of the well-known women in Nazi Germany – on the topic of infant care. This book, The German Mother and her First Child, was in its tenth edition at the end of the war. It is still on the market, with changes that obscure its origin and ideology, not revealing the year of its first appearance.[32] In her critical analysis of this and another book on child-rearing by Haarer, Sigrid Chamberlain concludes that child-raising and education in Nazi Germany and the early post-war years are characterized by coldness, harshness, and indifference. She views these theories as a "seamless transition into the ideology and the institutions of the Nazi state", stating that it is "time" to deal with the fact that "the majority of those born during the Third Reich and the post-war years were released into life with early Nazi ideology, without ever realizing this fact and its possible consequences."[33] In 1977 the concept of "Black Pedagogy", introduced by sociologist Katharina Rutschky, was established, summarizing – among other concepts – the child-raising and educational methods of this period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_childhood_in_World_War_II
@bonifartius @freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist Doesn’t the Bible literally say spare the rod and spoil the child?
I don’t think spanking and beating children started in #Nazi #Germany.
@realcaseyrollins that's why i wrote that haarer likely has equivalents around the world :)
@niclas @AmpBenzScientist @freemo
Actually despite the phrase being repeates as you just said it that is not the actual wording in the bible. This is the wording from the bible:
Whoever spares the rod hates their children,
but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist @bonifartius Perhaps I shouldn’t have said literally 😂
Still, the principle is there.
@niclas @AmpBenzScientist @freemo I get that to a degree, but I’d argue that something very small like a singular, relatively gentle smack on the hand of a small child isn’t anything to be particularly worried about, depending on how and why it’s done.
A gentle smack ont he hand that doesnt inflict much pain is a non issue.. I wouldnt even call that a spanking, thats just a gesture, I'd do that with my friend if he tried to steal my food :)
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist I would too, if I had better boundaries 😂
But I think that would be a spanking in its best form, IMHO.
For me to qualify as a beating (including spanking) it needs to inflict some level of pain and suffering as a learning tactic.. if its just physical contact but doesnt raise to the status of "pain" then i wouldnt say it qualifies.
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist What would be some good alternatives to spankings for younger children? I’d be more apt to condemn all spanking if I knew of some good alternatives.
@realcaseyrollins Depends on the age and the style of parenting.
My personal choice would be to take away privilages.. whether its TV time, or desert or something. Largely because I think that teaches the best real world lesson... people wont (and shouldnt) punch you in the face int eh real world, but they may stop doing your favors or helping you out.
Of course then you also have "time out", sending them to their room, hell just talking to them can go a long way. If you treat kids rationally and logically from a young age they are quite capable of reasoning from when they first aquire language skills. The reason most kids cant is because they arent treated as such for many years, so they never learn to reason and discuss. you can get 98% of the way there just talking to your kids respectfully and firmly from a young age.
@freemo This makes a lot of sense 👍🏾 I guess this is what they call “getting grounded”?
My primary concern would be with a punishment where their compliance would be necessary, such as a time out. I mean, you could lock them in their room…but that just sounds so wrong to do.
@realcaseyrollins Tahts why for me personally I'd stick with punishments that involve me taking something away that I give them. Maybe its desert, maybe its access to TV, depends on what they enjoy...
If i am a good parent then I should be someone who provides all sorts of things for my child to support their happiness, things that can be taken away too. If taking away what I give my child isnt enough of a punishment then maybe im not a great parent to begin with and need to reconsider what **I** do.
I know as a kid for me computer and internet was important. All my mom would have had to do was turn off the electricity or the internet and it would have been a pretty impactful punishment.
As a not-perfect father, I tried to combine the "disconnect Internet" with rewards for good behavior and explaining it clearly.
"Daddy, I want to play..."
"Ok, have you done X, Y and Z?"
"Uhhhhh....."
"When you have done that, you can play until 8 o'clock"
or
"No, not today, because you did X, and that is not good. So no play until tomorrow, IF you behave better..."
Worked to a large degree and didn't need to resort to "pain". His mum yelled a lot.
@niclas it depends a lot on how you raise them when their younger.
I see a lot of parents fail at those tactics, but its usually parents trying to improve their parenting once the kid is pre-teen when its far too late, dynamics are already established.
Friends often said "We can't do like that. Your child is so nice and sweet. We need to discipline ours...", not understanding/seeing the direct line that "nice and sweet" comes from being nice and sweet to the kids.
@realcaseyrollins @niclas @freemo Tell them to get ready for pushups until they can do no more. Exercise has a positive effect on behavior and they learn the basics of rechanneling their emotions.
@AmpBenzScientist @niclas @freemo I’m not sure how I feel about this one. I might not want to associate exercise with punishment. Or it could backfire if they like to exercise.
@realcaseyrollins @niclas @freemo Pain is weakness leaving the body.
And by applying basically logic that means pleasure is weakness entering the body.... bring it!
@freemo @AmpBenzScientist @niclas I agree with both lol
@freemo @realcaseyrollins @niclas Like Water Fluoridation?
There might be alternatives to spanking, and they might work really well for some kids. But there might be kids who need some physical reinforcement. Until the vague concept of "a child" with all its superpositions of what a child could be collapses into "the child in front of you right now" you can't know exactly what will or won't work.
That said, it's something you have to be careful of because the purpose of any discipline is not to make the parent feel better, but to try to help the child in the long run. One of the dangers of using pain as a disciplinary tool is there's always a risk of misusing it or using it instead of better tools for the job because it feel better in a moment of negative emotion from the parent.
While I obviously agree that kids need very different ways to learn, the idea that beting them might be an effective child rearing tool for **any** child just sounds bonkers to me.
NO child is going to learn best from being beat, none.. . The few who might appear to be raised well will have serious underlying issues that scar them for the rest of their lives. How aware of it they are is another matter.
I think if I ended up in that hypothetical scenario where he did need that.... I dunno, might just let the little guy grow up to be a serial killer and just act dumb...
I mean thats what most parents do, they take their frustration out on their kids by beating them, call it disciplin so they can lie to themselves and not feel guilty when they beat their child out of frustration.
@freemo @sj_zero @niclas @AmpBenzScientist I don’t think anyone here is condoning spanking or beating for emotionally soothing reasons though.
Of course not. The problem is any parent who beats their kid that is ultimately why. Most parent would never admit it, and as usually happens they use something as an excuse (like religion or disciplin or whatever)... but the truth is, they are taking the easy way out as parents, just hit the kid still he stops doing what you dont want...
The problem is any parent who beats their kid that is ultimately why.
Now THAT’S outta pocket. How can you possibly know the motive of every parent who beats or spanks their kid?
Because we arent talking about conscious motive for one, and for two, you simply can not be a rational well reasoned parent who doesnt have emotional issues and still beat your child.
Thats like saying "well how can you know hitlers motives"... well I dont need to to know he is messed up in the head and has issues to even act that way.
Parents who beat their kids arent hitlet, but they are similarly fucked up, no parent could be their kid and not be
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist @sj_zero Comparing parents who spank their children to literally #Hitler is wild
@freemo Shout-out for doing the right thing, facing punishment and staying true to yourself.