@don this is capitalist media, yes
@don 2014 was a Western-backed coup and the new Ukrainian regime then launched a war against the Donbas when they broke away because they didn't support the coup government.
@rbe_expert yep, and russia saved Donbas from regime by deploying concentration camps there. the only way to counter Western-backed coup is to genocide locals, if you not agree, you are russophobe
@don What does that have to do with the Ukrainian war against the Donbas from 2014 to 2021?
@don Why won't you support people's right to self-determination? Instead you support a central government that tried to subjugate people for not acquiescing to a coup government.
@rbe_expert @don Do you hear yourself? Why do you want then Ukraine as part of the ruZZian empire? You are clearly sick :)
@rbe_expert @don then why don't you support Ukrainian people, but instead you seem to support a fascist state engaged in war crines and genocide? Because ... capitalism... yeah, right. Useful idiot indeed.
@rbe_expert @don QED. You are a real usedul idiot. And a ruZZian troll
@rbe_expert @extrn the whole Ukrainian working class support Bandera. He is heroic anti-colonialist fighter . The reason why orcs call him fascist, because everyone who does not bend the knee to russian empire is a fascist
@extrn@qoto.org What determines what state is "fascist" and what state isn't? If Russia wasn't "fascist", would that change your opinion of things? @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert there's a definition (several in fact) of fascism. You can look for traits that are present in all fascist states. For example:
- ultranazionalism
- cult to the "glorious past"
- identifyjng varius groups as "enemies of the people".
- taking the voice of "the people": saying what "the people" like or don't like, what they want or don't want, imposing your view on how the society should be organized - because you supposedly speak with "the people's voice"...
There are a bunch of other signs as well. Look it up somewhere. ruZZia is clearly a fascist state right now.
@extrn@qoto.org These seem like pretty vague and ambiguous "traits" that could ulteriorly be applied to many states irrespective of political and/or economic/socioeconomic organization. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert So it appears you need a formal system to guide your moral compass... Are you an AI?
@extrn@qoto.org I'm trying to form a cohesive understanding of your borderline schitzoposting. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert you are not trying anything. You are just wasting my time
@adiz @don @rbe_expert you can start educating yoursef here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
@extrn@qoto.org You do realize that entire page speaks about how ethereal the concept of "fascism" itself is, with many different groups having many different definitions---it's anything but concrete or objective. The article even begins with a quote from a historian saying:
trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall
You just did an internet search for the Wikipedia article to link without even looking at it yourself, I assume? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social@adiz @don @rbe_expert I've read the page some time ago, when I was interested in it. So, in your oppinion because there are many definitions of something means that something does not exist? Fine. Replace fascism with a long list of verifiable wrongs and crimes ruZZia has done... I already said I don't care for labels. The labes are just shortcuts.
@extrn@qoto.org Okay, excellent, so you finally answered my core question originally:
If Russia wasn't "fascist", would that change your opinion of things?
So, I assume the answer, then, is "no"? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social@adiz @don @rbe_expert I don't understand what it means ruZZia not being fascist. RuZZia has killed innocent civilians in Ukraine, has bombed shelters, schools, kindergardens and hospitals. Has destroyed civil infrastructure, has deported children from the occupied territories, has killed and raped and tortured prisoners. Has burned Ukrainian textbooks and has prosecuted ukrainian teachers. Has turned on its own citizen, sending them into prison for long time for even a minor critique of the war (which they officially refuse to call "war")... The ruZZian big bussiness is divided by several oligarchs - friends of tzar putler... In my oppinion all this is evil motivated by personal greed and vanity of the tzar... By his dreams of a great empire full of serfs... So I don't understand the question. What is supposed to not be true?
@extrn@qoto.org I asked, regardless of your hangup on "fascism", if this was being done by any other country than Russia (or, if Russia wasn't "fascist", as you claim [whatever that means, it does not matter]), would you feel so similarly? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert I haven't even started yet with all the ruZZian crimes of the last 50 years. The most awful crime IMNSHO is the disregard of the individual. Treating their own people like meat that exists only for the sake of advancing the goals of the tzar. This absolutist mentality was erradicated in the west a long time ago. So I can see North Korea or China very well in this role. US had done some pretty outrageous things in Latin America and the Middle East. Britain in the past too. But you are not going to turn full ruZZian troll here asking: "And what about..."? Right? That's not an afgument at all. putler has destroyed the European security architecture existing since the ww2 and I, as an European and a citizen of a country, that's a victim of the ruZZian imperialism will not play with hypotheticals in my ivory tower while there is an acive ruZZian plot to destabilize my own country and enslave me and my family. Fuck ruZZia, fuck putler, prigozin and the whole Kremlin. Let tgem burn!
@extrn@qoto.org So, this all really just comes down to the fact that you hate Russia/Russians and are a Eurocentric chauvinist? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert not at all. I would feel the same about any country killing people that want to be free. It just so happens that I have a particulary long history with ruZZia an md ruZZian lies
@extrn@qoto.org What do you think should be done to a country like Russia for what they're doing? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert Nothing *should* be done to a country. The tzar will fall off a window when they lose the war. There will be a brief struggle between the oligarchs (because in their authoritarian government there are no rules of succession) and then a fission process will occur, splitting Chechnia and other parst of ruZZia. It is possible China to take Siberia. So what they deserve will happen all by itself. What should be done is just one thing - help them lose the war
@extrn@qoto.org When do you imagine all of this will happen? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert It depends on the western support for Ukraine. The west has been very shy in that support. It is telling when you review the support by % of GDP: the former eastern bloc leads: All small countries that know what to expect from the empire. Meanwhile the likes of Macron and Sholtz are playing politics an "talking on the phone" and "keeping the channels open". Clowns. US has their own reasons for their support - they already carried the burden of one cold war - perhaps they don't want another.
@adiz @don @rbe_expert I can only hope this will be resolved quickly - within 5 years. But I am afraid it will not. So instead of doing something productive we are paying a ruZZian tax - because the fucking ruZZians are stupid and can't understand the first thing about dictatorships...
@extrn@qoto.org "Paying a [Russian] tax"? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert the economy will be working on producing weapons instead of more productive things. I call it ruZZian tax. The war can end tomorrow, if putler withdraws from Ukraine, but that's impossible for him. He's manucered himself into a corner - if he withdraws, he'll fall from the nearest window... And there is no way anyone recognizing an illegal annexation. Just a little solidarity and support is required. Unfortunately I see a lot of weasel words and careful calcularltions... I hope at some point the west understandd how important this is.
Russians aren't stupid, most are just brainwashed and we've never had strong democratic institutions and democratic tradition to counter the authoritarian power grab to begin with.
Making Russia lose the war isn't too hard, it'll probably happen this year, but what's next? Fixing Russia in it's current form isn't possible. Splitting it into a dozen of smaller states the size of Poland like your said is probably the best way, each of these states will barely have the resources to wage wars and if some of them will get just as corrupt, some probably won't. But who and how is going to implement it? It's a complex task that has to be carried out for decades and no one in the West is exactly eager to do that. Just leaving it be is also not an option — having a civil war in a country that has stashes of Soviet-era military equipment is hardly better than what we have today. I personally doubt that Russia even has any operational strategic nuclear weapons. Servicing those requires huge sums of money, at the same time there is no visible output. I know how corrupt this country is very well so those funds most probably got completely stolen. But still, not a single person in the world is going to put their money on it. No one is going to act as if there are no nuclear weapons. Even if there are none, there are nuclear power plants, catastrophe on one of those in a war-torn country doesn't sound too good, right?
The West, including the US, is not interested in all that, they'll be fine with Russia as it is and will probably do everything to keep it together, just replacing Putin with someone who is slightly less nuts, so they can get back to business as usual as soon as possible. But in this case this cycle is bound to repeat itself again and again.
@adiz @don @rbe_expert
@extrn@qoto.org I wouldn't exactly call the support "shy"---the United States has spent more on Ukraine in a year than they did over a decade in their war against Afghanistan. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert USA still refuse to provide more effective weapons like ATACMS. Ukraine needs also abilities to hit deep inside ruZZian territory: to destroy airstrips for strategic bombers and training centers.
@extrn@qoto.org I don't want America to provide more money and weapons to Ukraine. I'm already upset that America has spent the amount of tax dollars on some corrupt Eastern European rotating-puppet-state that they have. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert if ruZZia wasn't a fascist state it would be murderous criminal state then. In my case "fascist" is just a shortcut for all the crimes they committed. It's a label but I don't care for labels. I'm just sensitive to taking away people's freedoms. Fascists, communists, islamists, christian fundamentalistas - it's basically the same for me.
@extrn@qoto.org Cool, so zero room or care for nuance or semantic objectivity. Got it. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert wtf are you BOTting about? Everyone sees in ruZZia people get in prison for just mentioning the war or just for calling fir peace. Children are taken away from their parents for drawing anti-war pictures.... But mister "objective bot" here sprinkles nonsense.... There's no moral equivalence between western values and totalitarian values. We don't need to defend or explain ourselves. The enslavers do!
@extrn@qoto.org Okay, whatever. I'm just "wasting your time", I guess. 🤷♂️ @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@extrn @don I DO support the Ukrainian people-- the working class that is, not the bourgeoisie who want to use this war to expand the NATO/US empire. I don't support any of the current governments of any countries, because none of them are Marxist (not even China's government).