@extrn@qoto.org What do you think should be done to a country like Russia for what they're doing? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert Nothing *should* be done to a country. The tzar will fall off a window when they lose the war. There will be a brief struggle between the oligarchs (because in their authoritarian government there are no rules of succession) and then a fission process will occur, splitting Chechnia and other parst of ruZZia. It is possible China to take Siberia. So what they deserve will happen all by itself. What should be done is just one thing - help them lose the war
@extrn@qoto.org When do you imagine all of this will happen? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert It depends on the western support for Ukraine. The west has been very shy in that support. It is telling when you review the support by % of GDP: the former eastern bloc leads: All small countries that know what to expect from the empire. Meanwhile the likes of Macron and Sholtz are playing politics an "talking on the phone" and "keeping the channels open". Clowns. US has their own reasons for their support - they already carried the burden of one cold war - perhaps they don't want another.
@extrn@qoto.org I wouldn't exactly call the support "shy"---the United States has spent more on Ukraine in a year than they did over a decade in their war against Afghanistan. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert USA still refuse to provide more effective weapons like ATACMS. Ukraine needs also abilities to hit deep inside ruZZian territory: to destroy airstrips for strategic bombers and training centers.
@extrn@qoto.org I don't want America to provide more money and weapons to Ukraine. I'm already upset that America has spent the amount of tax dollars on some corrupt Eastern European rotating-puppet-state that they have. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert And what state that will be? And if you don't do it now, eventually you'll have to do it - just like in WW2. And it will be much more expensive. I think the american administration understands this very well, but they move slowly because of politics - both internal and international.
@extrn@qoto.org I don't think we will have to do anything at all. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert Not helping Ukraine means ruZZia taking it. Then Moldova. Increasing their influence. Getting cocky. Starting shit in US (Trump). It is vastly more expensive than just proving them wrong right in the spot of their first transgression. (not that it's their first - they already escalated from human rights issues in the 2000s to the war with Georgia, to the poisonings on western soil, to annexations of Crimea and starting shit in Donbas, to elections interference in US and otger countries...). Much cheaper to kill 500000 orcs and be done with it.
@extrn@qoto.org We aren't taking anything. Pretty racist of you to refer to Slavic people's as "orcs". You're clearly a typical European supremacist. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert I do not refer to slavic people as orcs. I'm slavic people... :) ruZZian rapists in Ukraine are orcs. Ask anyone ghat cares. .
@extrn @adiz @don From my perspective as a Marxist this whole war is a huge tragedy that didn't need to happen if the USSR's regime had not been revisionist Stalinists who decided to undemocratically dissolve itself to allow its bureaucracy to profit off of privatization. The Ukraine War is the result of capitalist imperialism of NATO / the West seeking to assimilate Russia and then China into its territory and control to protect itself against collapse.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don So NATO started the war... Diesn't strike me as something a sane person would say....
@extrn@qoto.org Gee, I don't know, it's not like there was a CIA sponsored coup that toppled the pro-Russian government in 2014 and installed a radically pro-Western regime which purged the officer corps, immediately began antagonisms on the Eastern borders, and destroyed decades of Ukrainian-Russian cooperation or anything. @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert dou you have any evidence? Because of experience I can tell you it is far more likely the educated Ukrainians living in big cities envisioned themselves as part of Europe with freedom to go wherever they like, work whatever they want and live their lives as they please, than deciding to join an authoritarian pigsty.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don who are "they"? And solution to what? And do yoj have any evidence? Because I can tell you - nobody needs to foment anything with me - the moment the orcs try to take my freedom they'll die
@rbe_expert @adiz @don these are people that do not want to have their lifes stollen by a dictatorship. I tell you - no sane person who lived in eastern Europe will ever want to join ruZZian sphere of influence.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don old regime was also fond of snipers killing protesters as far as I remember. I also remember poisoning politicians... And if you want to see what Ukraine would have been now, look no further than Belarus. I don't know why you are so drawn to dictators. Why don't you go to live there? It is easy recommending "workers" do it, why don't you give an example? You are too comfortable enjoying the freedom of the west, while talking shit about it... I believe Popper concluded you should not be given that opportunity... So just go ti ruZZia or Noth Korea to educate tha "workers" 🤡🤡🤡
@rbe_expert @adiz @don dead bodies
@extrn@qoto.org Evidence of dead bodies? @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert so you lost the ability to google?
@rbe_expert @adiz @don wasn't this during the Yanukovich betrayal that forced the riots?
@rbe_expert @adiz @don because the traitor broke the negotiations with EU and moved swiftly to ruZZia... why didn't he wait for elections? You are too appologetic of dictators. Are you sure you are marxist? You look like a putler shill
@extrn@qoto.org Ukraine was already geopolitically aligned with Russia. So, if you brand someone a "traitor" and muddy the waters with prerogatives then it's okay to throw a violent coup and overthrow a stable government (assuming it's backed by and beneficial to Western interests)? Funny how these "rules" work! 🥴 @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert Bullshit. Ukraine was in negotiations for integration with EU. That's what the people expected and I'd be shocked to learn putler didn't know.
@extrn@qoto.org You are just going to make up whatever "rules" or justifications or excuses you need to keep your viewpoint on the "win". You've moved goalposts across this playing field so many times the grass has muddied. You really have zero foundation. Discussing things with you is like "pulling teeth", or akin to negotiating with a toddler. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert again bullshit. The negotiations with EU were actually complete. Just a few days before sighing Yanukovich turned to putler. How that sounds to you? ... speaking of toddlers... "the capitalist media" excuse is so deeply integrated in your mind that you refuse to see even basic facts. Putler tried to grab Ukraine. He failed, so he startrd a war. Grow up!
@extrn@qoto.org I'm not going to discuss anything further. You refuse to accept any level playing field for conversation. You won't make any concessions. You outright refused to even consider any equivalency or equality in geopolitical parallels. You won't accept anything that grains against the blinders you've installed on yourself. There is no point in conversing with a fanatic. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert At what point you were "discussing"? You resoned from the position of the invisible purple unicorn.... Putler is a dictator and terrorist. You don't agree? Fine - you can d go to Muhosransk to grow turnips in a comune 🤡 I am not going to accept the point of view of murderers and terrorists. I know too well the likes of you FROM EXPERIENCE in real life!
@rbe_expert @adiz @don because from the point of view of the individual ("worker") it matters very much on which side of the border they'll happen to end. I'm not going to accept any concessions to terrorists and murderers. For you, it seems, the individual happiness has no meaning and these struggles are just a meaningless distraction from the grand fight against capitalism... It all very conveniently coincides with positions of dictators and terrorists: "it all does not matter, as long as there is capitalist oppression"... It is a stupid, fanatical point. Not all evils are equal... some are more equal (if you allow me the reference).
@extrn @adiz @don You seem unaware of how many people die every year under so-called "enlightened", "peaceful", "relaxed" Western capitalism. Let me help you understand the brutality:
https://youtu.be/ClLKm8Q8Pns
@rbe_expert @adiz @don Read "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined". It may change your catastrophic views.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don Before unlearning economics, you should learn some. Better yet, use it in practice. You may find it more enjoyable than arguing from the height of your ivory tower.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don that's just in USA. It'a not the whole world. USA has these backward notions regarding healthcare and education...
@extrn @adiz @don The reason we have these backward notions is because we spend all our money on military to dominate other countries and put down socialist notions everywhere else in the world, and we make sure we can do this by radicalizing our people with extreme right-wing propaganda and nationalism so they won't question whether capitalism is the reason everything sucks.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don You are so naive, "si vis pacem, para bellum" as the romans said. You are staring at the consequences of demilitarization: in tge last 30 years the European NATO members stopped spending the required 2% of the GDP on military capabilities. And what do we get? A dictator, trying to destroy an independent country, committing genocide and war crimes. Thank god there is the US! I hope Europe learns the lesson.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don Military spending is a tax, worth paying. An actual war is much more expensive, as putler is about to learn.
@extrn @adiz @don The huge military spending helps nobody but the rich who are doing this to expand their empire, and it's not helping the working class who are being denied funding for meeting human needs. You're in denial about how disgusting this is. The rich do not care about us, they pretend to, they make symbolic gestures, but not MATERIAL ones.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don The militarh spending keeps people's way of life safe. If a country can't protect its borders it will fall victim of the next egomaniac that wants to be called emperor. That destroys "workers" lifes too. I assure you, there are signifficant differences between life in ruZZia and Poland for example, and it's not in favor of ruZZia. Peoples lifes matter. Cut the marxist bullahit. People in democratic countrist live much better than in any dictatorship even without the freedom metric. For me the freedom is most important, but they also are better off economically too.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don Btw: when talking about people it is distasteful to consider onky their class but not individuality. Every action is performed by individuals, not classes. To say that one class does something to another is a crude simplification which aims for creating hatred and division. Crimes are performed by individuals, not classes.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don well, marxist states have this murderous tendency to become giant concentration camps...
@rbe_expert@mastodon.social Or when the British redirected trade from India to support their war effort in Europe resulting in famine. @extrn@qoto.org @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert obviously both of you are lacking logic skills fof formal reasoning so you resort to emotions.
Crimes are performed by individuals, not classes.
Just not true at all. @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com@adiz @don @rbe_expert is it so? So... hitler was right for the jews? What was their crime again?
@rbe_expert @adiz @don and what happened in 2014? Ukraine would have to be insane to not start preparing for war after 2014. Europe was certifiably insane to "negotiate" with putler... Good there was US to help Ukraine prepare for the phase II of putler madness
@rbe_expert @adiz @don the simple truth is, putler invaded Ukraine and no ammount of marcist bullshit can erase that. It was a crime - both from legal and moral pov.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don Complaining about "heroic struggles" from a trotzkist sounds rather funny. What do you expect from your utopia? No work? I can tell you what will happen: after the initial heroic effort required to create the new world, everything gradually normalizes: you go and work 8 hours, sleep 8 hours and 8 hours do whatever. The efficiency gradually decreases ("why should I work when it doesn't matter?"). People start to depend on the state for everything, they lose the capability to self-organize, stop believing in their own powers and become a herd. Innovation becomes difficult: virtually anything has to be initiated by the state... Then everyone gradually becomes poor. Virtually no one is motivated to bust their ass working, when everyone takes the same share. It's the human nature.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don You look radicalized by extreme marx-wing propaganda. Yet you are not in prison, you are free to spread your kind of propaganda in direct aid to foreign powers. That suggests there are some degrees of freedom that you enjoy. I bet that nothing stops you from buying a few hectares of land in Montana to create a commune where you can try marxism in practice...
@extrn @adiz @don Has been debunked.
https://youtu.be/fo2gwS4VpHc