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How do you feel about the fact that Trump has now officially been impeached?
Note, the poll option "But the senate didnt vote yet" was a booby option to see how many people understand the fact that the impeachment vote is over, final, and done. The senate doesnt ever vote on impeachment.
@freemo They will vote, but as Jurors on the trial process.
Indeed unlikely to result in a conviction, as the party is holdign their noses and sticking with the man.
@design_RG Well juror isnt the right word. Even if they vote to kick him out of office that does not require or imply he did anything illegal. Impeachment is not a criminal court.
@freemo I have seen it reported in the media as a Trial process, and with the senators becoming a jury to deliberate on the veredict and the charges.
With one of the Supreme Court judges actually presiding over the proceedings.
All from media reports, I am not very familiar with the details.
@design_RG Ok so just checked some facts.
1) I was correct that the trial that follows impreachment is not criminal in nature, the reasoning can be as simple as improper conduct, or as severe as a criminal act. The exact wording according to senate.gov is this "if a federal official commits a crime or otherwise acts improperly, the House of Representatives may impeach" so it does not necessarily imply criminality occured.
2) it is further not really a jury or criminal trial in any sense because there is no possiblity of conviction should the vote pass for any criminal consequnces. The only consequence that the president can face as a result of the senate hearing would be being barred from holding office
3) you are correct in the fact that the chief justice of the supreme court ultimately presides over the hearing and gets to be a gatekeeper of what evidence is presented, what is not, who gets subpoenaed, etc. But keep in mind the senate is fundementally different than a jurt in the sense that before the hearing they already heard all the evidence unrestricted from the impeachment hearings. So while normally a jury is choosen to be unbiased and have no previous knowledge, and thus the judge gets to decide what evidence they hear, this doesnt apply to the senate. So it would still be improper to see them as a jury.
4) side note, once a president is removed from office, and only then, can a separate criminal trial be held where criminality is determined. however it is likely the case that the new president (since he was the president's vice) will simply pardon him and prevent him from facing criminal charges. This is what happened with nixon.
@werekat Nothing wrong with that "mistake" really, but the option was meant as a joke.
But the common "venacular" definition doesnt mean "removal from office" the layperson definition according to the dictionary is actually "the action of calling into question the integrity or validity of something."
There is also a definition which doesnt disagree with the senate hearing which is "a charge of misconduct made against the holder of a public office."
However if you use the word impeachment to mean "someone who has been removed from office" generally speaking you are using the word incorrectly even in its vernacular form.
@freemo I own the mistake, no trouble there. But my argument here is more descriptivist than proscriptivist, linguistically-speaking. I don't think it's the only time I've seen the meaning of a word that signifies part of a procedure be expanded, in common use, to cover the entire procedure when used as a kind of shorthand. A dictionary may or may not pick up the difference before such usage reaches its expiration date. It's interesting as a possible source of such mistakes.
@freemo Of course, another possible source is just people picking the "let's choose the option which makes me sound more knowledgeable than I really am" options, which is the effect that "but what about" question usually create! :P
@werekat Its certainly a very common mistake. Though to be fair a lot of words are used incorrectly by people who arent too critical about the actual meaning. Nothing wrong with that, it happens.
@freemo I'm thinking now of how the outcome would change if other terms were used in the poll. Say "how do you feel about Trump being formally accused?" In this case, an answer of "But the Senate hasn't voted yet" would infer "accusations are only the beginning". I would be curious to know if anyone interpreted your poll that way.
@werekat Sadly polls have very limited text limitations. So I was somewhat restricted in my wording.
@freemo
Oh, certainly - it's more of an idle linguistic curiosity rather than anything else.
@werekat Yea exactly. Though it is a nice stick to beat people with when they start getting an attitude in a political debate :)
@freemo Looks like a distinction between the vernacular use of impeachment as in "removal from office" vs. strict use of impeachment, i.e. "formal charges filed by House of Representatives." For the record, I was one of those who read your question in the vernacular.