@timorl @freemo I mean, if I'm not mistaken/am remembering this correctly (I pretty much watched it unfold in real time from inception), it was a prank literally brainchilded on /pol/ specifically to dupe journos—and thereafter legitimate white supremacists started doing it ironically after it got popularized by media trying to sensationalize it.

@kino

The number of cases of legitimate white supremacists using it is very very small. Wikipedia has a complete list of times it was legitimately used by white supremacists and I dont think the list even hits the dozen mark.

So not sure I'd call that valid IMO.

@timorl

@freemo @timorl Yeah, I can't really cite any times it was used by real white supremacists outside of maybe the NZ mosque shooter. I just remember *being on 4chan* when this was being shilled into existence by anons for the specific purpose of fucking with journos. And then like 3 months later it was being widely cites by journos as meaning "white power".

@kino

And now everytime someone is caught in a picture making the OK handgesture, without any other context, everyone goes "yup, look at this racist fuck"

@timorl

@freemo @timorl The joke is only funny if you know it was a joke. Unfortunately it went over the heads of the normies who were not in on the gag and the journos therefore sort of won.

@kino

In my mind BLM isnt really something to mock overall. Its an important voice.

But as I said in their mocking they did manage to reveal a disurbing thread of group think that ultimately makes them easy to manipulate as a group. And its not really even a BLM specific thing, its activists as a whole right now.

@timorl

@freemo @timorl Yeah, I'm not in this convo to mock BLM—just to add my 2¢ to the whole "👌" "controversy".

I agree that we're seeing massive amounts of drone, extremist, cult-like behavior these days. Not *just* from the activist demographic, but from almost all sides. Everyone is seemingly becoming a devout ideologue.

@kino

Absolutely, its an issue on the radiacal right as it is on the radical left as well.

Horeshoe theory has a lot of truth to it. The left and the right are almost indistinguishable in their maturity and critical thinking skills. Same way of thinking, just slightly different indoctrination.

The story is the same, the main characters just have different names so to speak.

@timorl

@freemo I actually didn't see that happen -- I know it was widely reported to be a white supremacist symbol, but I don't remember any innocent person being accused of being racist due to using it. And this makes some sense -- the contexts in which people are using this hand gesture normally are rarely ones in which you could confuse the message for "white power".
@kino

@timorl

as I said wikipedia tried to compile a fairly exhaustive list of times the OK hand gesture was legitimately used in a racist context and it barely reached the dozen mark.

So if its getting on national lists of hate speech with virtually 0 representation as being used in the way described, that alone shows it is misattributed if nothing else.

I mean hell even ive been accused as a racist for using the Ok symbol before.

@kino

@freemo Huh, the last claim really surprizes me, Care to tell the story? I'd be quite interested.

If no innocents were accused of using it in a racist manner (which doesn't seem to be the case from what you are saying, but I still think it's an interesting argument in abstracto), then I'd say labeling it as a racist symbol was not entirely incorrect -- after all it was mostly racists talking about it, and no one should confuse people using it to just mean "OK" with racists. Contexts with hand gestures are not as clear as with spoken language, but they should be clear enough.
@kino

@timorl

It was over a year ago ont he fediverse.

I posted something to the effect of "hey guys not ever use of the OK hand gesture is racist, in fact most of the time it just means OK"... probably 20 or 30 people called me racist for that comment and people pushed to have me suspended and blocked.

@kino

@freemo Yeah, this one sounds much more real. Well, then I'm wrong, and this is sad. :/
@kino

@freemo Not the fact I was wrong, just the fact that people do that of course.
@kino

@timorl

If someone has a legitimate racist making a clear OK symbol and it seems clear it is racist in nature, I'll be the first to say "fuck you".. but the point here is it is very rare.

It leads to more false accusations than real ones simply because its use as a real hate symbol verges on non existant, and the use of it as a legitimate hand symbol is overwhelmingly common in every day use.

In fact thats exactly what 4chan was going for and why they exploited the situation the way they did.

@kino

@timorl @freemo >the contexts in which people are using this hand gesture normally are rarely ones in which you could confuse the message for "white power"

You'd be right, but I've seen *many* instances were people have disingenuously called people out for "white supremacy" or "racism" simply because they made the 👌 sign—knowing full well that it wasn't used in any racist or ethnonationalist context, simply exploiting its journo-powered connotations among members of the dogmatic leftist sphere to smear someone they dislike. Now, tbf, that rarely ever goes anywhere and most people making these claims are ignored or lampooned, but it's still being weaponized against folks.

@kino Same as with @freemo I'm curious of these instances. In particular are you sure these were actual leftists, not more trolls? If they were ignored it kind of... I don't know, sounds suspicious.

@timorl @freemo They could've been trolls, but they seemed like earnest trolls. Usually someone digging through someone's social media to find them with the symbol, posting it as a response to another post or thread with some text insinuating them as being a white supremacist, followed by a deluge of people posting pictures of celebrities and politicians making the same symbol in response. Not an altogether rare occurrence to see on Twatter.

@kino This sounds like unsuccsessful trolls being immediately called out, not actual incidents.
@freemo

@timorl @freemo What quantifies something as being an "instance" or "incident", then?

@kino What @freemo described qualifies. Unfortunately Mastodon is not quite designed for instant messaging, so my responses might have seemed garbled between the two posts you guys made. :P

@timorl

For me most of the people were very active leftists on strongly left oriented instances. Generally self described activists.

@kino

@kino

I couldn't sleep and was on 8ch to kill time, just moments after NZ thing happened, safe to say I didn't sleep that night. It was fucking surreal seeing that unfold. (The fucking idiot.)

@freemo @timorl

@kino

Same. People adopted it because the media was spassing out about, not that it was a legitimate gangsign. Remember the whole milk thing?

@freemo @timorl

@xyfdi @freemo @timorl >milk is the last implicit symbol of white identity

@kino

Only if you look hard enough...

@freemo @timorl

@timorl I'm fine with saying that 4chan are white supremacists for the sake of argument.

But thats kinda the point. They never used it seriously to signal anything about them being white supremacist.

They saw a symbol that was so mind boggling common (something people use many times a day, literally everyone, akin to waving hello) and said "watch how we can manipulate them to absurd extrems.

Their intention was to take a gesture so common by convincing people it was a symbol of racism so people would start accusing ordinary innocent people of racism, specifically to cause non-racists to be antagonistic and hateful towards eachother, ot ensure people who are reasonable and going "guys this is a common hand gesture" are called racist and ultimately come to hate their fellow anti-racists.

The truth is there is a very very small handful of legitimate cases where white supremacists used it to signal racism. Virtually non-existent. Yet a bunch of white supremacists or trolls were able to manipulate a whole nation to act exactly the way they wanted. They were in control and they got the exact effect they wanted.

They never adopted the symbol, they only manipulated people into thinking they did, thats the key.

It says a lot more about the people they could manipulate to act exactly the way tehy intended than anything else.

@timorl @freemo you just give them the power to subvert your own culture with that logic

@vnarek @freemo Why would I know of a Slovakian Nazi channel? 😂

@kino @freemo They are pretty famous even between non-nazi folks, because of their support for LSNS. It was not an attack on you sorry! 😄

@vnarek @freemo LSNS? I'm not taking attack, it just seemed like a humorously random question.

@kino @freemo Lidová Strana Naše Slovensko. Kotlebovci :D

@vnarek @freemo 🤷‍♂️Google translate, here we go…

@kino @freemo Wait you are not from the Czech Republic? 😅 sorry

@vnarek @freemo Very far from the Czech Republic.

@vnarek

You sure you linked the right video. I see nothing about the OK symbol there.

@kino

@freemo Look at the hat this is just an example from more local usage I wanted to share with kino because I though he is from Czech Republic 😄

@vnarek Ahh i see the hat now. What does the text say? The video doesnt seem racist in any way yet, though im not all the way through it. So far they just asked a question and showt he answers.

@freemo It says 👌 Hail Bacon 👌 is an okay sign used by this folk, which directly supports far right groups in Slovakia.

@vnarek who or what is bacon? I mean other than a meat.

@freemo I think that stylization matters. The message is just for memes I would say.

@vnarek I dont know the guys channel or the context well enough to know if he is using it as a racist symbol or not.

To me the hat seems to have a nonsensical message on it without anything to do with racism, and the video seems to not be racist in anyway (again i didnt finish it though).

@freemo Yeah thats the problem as I said it was more ment for the Kino because I though he is from Czech.

Let's go from the other side. Why would the nationalists have an okay sign on the hat? That's the problem it was a joke (great one btw) until actual nazis started using it.

@vnarek Hard to say. Before I can answer that, cause I dont know this guy is, did you really mean to say Nationalist, or did you mean to say White Supermacist? A nationalist is just someone who strongly supports their Nation. It doesn't always imply racism which is more the topic at hand.

If you mean "why would a racist person have an OK sign on their hat", presuming this guy is a racist (I dont know who he is) Then I'd say, probably if it were used in such a way then it is used with racist intent. The only other explanation was that it was intended to mock people who see it as a racist symbol.

The argument though is that racist generally almost never use it. So do we have any evidence this guy is, in fact, a racist. Can you share a video in which he is voicing racist sentiment? Like I said I dont know who he is.

@freemo Yeah It would be hard because most of their videos are in Slovak language. But there are plenty of american alt-righters that use this symbol a lot. Additionally I don't think it is an race symbol all the time. Context matters, but it is frequently used this way.

Yeah, sorry, I should say white supremacist. They have an agenda against Roma people in Slovakia.

Here for example my favourite punch bag: Richie Spencer. This is the actual founder of the alt-right

@vnarek Fair counter example

@freemo

Addendum: Image search for images of pol meetups. It is an surprisingly diverse group of individuals.