Governments do what we need to do (give to other people) but not by stealing and pocketing of our donations at the same time...
Right now we're anyway paying ourselves and others with our own energy... and funding the rich to oppress us.
So I suggest reducing the bad money people and holes in between, and more creating reasons to spread things among ourselves
🇳🇱
@freeschool Its not the rich who are oppressing us. Everyone oppresses us, rich, poor, middle class. People are just assholes.
@freemo But not equally oppressive or equally assholes.
There is an equation / structure that does the compound damage so you or I as assholes isn't much but those who are rich massacre in finance anything compared to that, or even hammer / delete / erase years worth of good people's work. It's not equal also as the 'who has more resources to be an asshole' and following more structurally enforcing things and threatening using that system does way more damage that your 'we're all equal' sounding stuff seems to be saying...
Though for sure people are born erroneous - we just need a system and more people that lean the tree toward better ways (and not pure-profit ways which is not even neutral and opposite to accepting our own imperfections and magnifying it)
@freeschool Rich people have more power, so for an equal measure of asshole you might argue they do more damage on an individual basis. But there are is also far fewer of them, so collectively this balances out.
In reality I'd say the huge masses of poor to middle class assholes do equal societal damage overall when compared to the very small number of rich assholes.
@freemo @freeschool Far between, but wealth accumulated more than the lower half of the total population. It's moving towards upper class and lower class, the middle class is diminishing. Wealth transfer has already been confirmed, the upper class gained 30% on average since the start of Covid.
That means there are even fewer rich assholes and even more poor assholes. So doesnt really change the crux of the argument here.
That said uneven wealth distribution is not the issue and never has been. The true measure should be the oppertunity afforded to the poor and middle class and their quality of life.
Lets not forget more than half of the wealthy people started out in life as poor or middle class.
@freemo @freeschool That's not what I read, unless you are born into the top 1% you aren't going there statistically, ever. There was a time when this was possible, back when the tax on the rich was around 70%, and you had effective laws to counter cartels and monopolies, that time is gone.
What you just said is not contrary to what I said.
The vast majority of the rich were born poor and middle class. But there are very few rich people, ergo, your change of becoming rich is still low.
Lets face it, the rich represent (mostly) the people who are the absolute best at making money. Not everyone can be the best, most people cant be the best, but being the best is open to anyone no matter how you started.
@freemo @freeschool They aren't the best at making money, they use their wealth to make it impossible for the rest of us to get there, the game is rigged the way I see it.
That assertion is in direct contradiction to the fact that the overwhelming majority of the rich started as poor or middle class.. so you point is simply false.
@freemo @freeschool Not sure where you get that info from, most rich people come from wealthy families.
I get that number and numbers like it from countless studies I've read. Plus it is quite obvious as I deal with rich people every day, the vast majority of whome are self-made.
Here is one such report for you out of a great many that all reaffirm the same data: https://www.wealthx.com/report/world-ultra-wealth-report-2019/
Now more importantly, what study or professionally executed report do **you** get your data from to suggest most wealthy people are born to it?
@freemo @freeschool Wealthy to me is when you can buy politicians legally through donations and use lobbying, not that you can afford two cars, house and family.
30 million is more than enough to buy politicians. My step dad is worth 25 million and both Trump and Biden were over his house and spent the night in an attempt to get money from him. So yea, more than enough to buy politicians.
@freemo @freeschool In other words, we share an opinion, democracy is failing.
This is true, but where we disagree is whose fault it is. I argue its everyones fault, you seem to think the blame mostly lies on the wealthy.
@freemo @freeschool If you can buy politicians to gain advantage for your business then there's the fault right there, it's unethical to do so, and it should be illegal. Shared blame for corrupt politicians and the rich who uses the system. In the end only a revolution can even things out, my guess it will happen soon, unless the rich invent some world war to divert attention from the class war, exciting times ahead.
The problem is that it isnt a problem isolated to the rich. Many politicians start out very much not rich and take advantage of the system (ultimately becoming rich if they are good or staying poor if they arent). As such they, as middle-class and below are equally to blame for taking the bribes in the first place.
Never mind the fact that the rich buying off politicians is a small fraction of the overall problem which extends well beyond bribery or the rich.
@freemo @freeschool As the class gap increases the rich get fewer, and more people get poor. This will eventually lead to revolution in some form (doesn't have to be violent). The big problem is to beat corruption in a system which is corrupt, it can't be done from within. Perhaps unrelated, but I'm pretty sure that if you and me met in real life we would become buddies with slightly difference views.
I dont agree. It isnt the wage gap that leads to revolution. It is the quality of life and quantity of the lowest paid tier of society. As long as the poor have a good overall quality of life the wage gap wont matter, particularly if the system is fair and the rich represent self-made rich people (As it currently does)
@freemo @freeschool When half the population barely gets by to make ends meet, and can't afford more than a USD$ 400 emergency on average, that's bad over all quality.
Yes it is. I am not saying there isnt a problem. I am saying you are misidentifying what that problem is
@freemo @freeschool I think one of the problems is that poor people sometimes feel shame, so they try to keep appearances up, but they have nothing to be ashamed of, once that shame turns into to anger you have a revolution coming. Only the people who get rich by making other people poor should feel shame in my opinion, but for some reason they don't, almost as if you have the "key to success" right there.
Its fairly rare that someones poor status is entierly the fault of some greedy rich person. I grew up poor, most poor people make the wrong decisions that keep them poor combined with not having good resources to help them make the right decision, it is a bit of both.
I know many rich people who offer advice and make amazing mentors for people looking to get out of poverty. Sadly the impression of "rich people evil" means very often poor people dont even take the first step of looking for a rich mentor to help them succeed. When they do they often just dont take the steps needed.
I have financially supported over a dozen people in my life with the intent of getting them on their feet and making them financially successful. Many simply didnt do what was needed of them for success and had no one to blame but themselves. A small number took my advice and guidance and most of them are veryw ell to do today.
Victim mentality is one of the core problems keeping poor people down. More programs to help them would be great but they wont do squat until they take responsibility for their own situation.
@freemo @modrobert
I am noticing @freemo you're not answering my posts as you go same as modroberts...
Just check that yourself please- and if you notice anything )other than it's long as excuse) do say.
Some real good one-liners were said so far...
"Succeeding" today means very different things in a good / caring system...
"Successful" in bad / uncaring system means a whole dictionary of bad aggressive ways; cutting corners, backstabbing, taking over competition in hierarchy, non-discussions, dominating type ways patterns just to 'get the job done' but those leading us terribly or terribly nowhere (it is hard for a company to break out of the matrix it's in).
I personally don't want to do a lot of quite unproductive or bland unhumanitarian work, arguably getting money off others in a big pyramid chain like I was a prostitute in a long line of prostitutes. (since numbers and people looking at others tends to demand that as a template).
It's the opposite of plentiful jobs created in mind of diversity lol
Business is the art of making money from people and seeing people AS money and then brute-scaling that - not for harmony or playing honest. Banks funds both sides of war too.
So when you say that "poor people don't even take the first step" if feels like you don't even see a lot of work people want to do deliberately doesn't exist as it would under the power structure (structured violence etc) or it's not given by those in charge exactly knowing what that leads to (questioning auth and point of job itself when largely we did have or can do less intensive work hours or demand less of a pay packet to fat cats per month)
Job is just a tax method... just create whatever job!
Jobs are in the same templates and not in realm of just living with each other or natural economics... it's arbitrary and authoritarian AND they wouldn't want it any other way!! (same for a lot of things even if it creates things that looks good but they still have their own way from how it's designed and people who work for them behind inside it like a self-paid gang)
AND that it is morally wrong / extortion (like the whole people represented AS money thing from start to finish even without the gangs)
How can people ignore banks?
What do you think about banks saying "sorry got no money" you think "oh yeah that's ok just give them our public money for their PRIVATE enterprises"
Where you at freemo?
Now you might have some variations but in aggressive or well-thought egregious stuff simply having money as #1 is a problem... and still would be even if it was lower ranked unless it was last given the snowball factor (literally lots of arbitrary %'s quickly adding up to needless debt chains)... so what do you expect..? it's a rock and a hard place ultimatum with banking system / financially fascist choosing in that way (can't value people unless they make "more" money for you... that is beyond doing something in life but raping people.
Money for me is hardly any to me and others that way (I'm not just a body) and never would I reduce someone's moral considerations to what matches to what is lacking in the world...
Again it's the systems fault building patterns that has the accumulation of all that's before it and no chance to do anything else and therefore almost 'no good' literally! Rules deliberately to stop all that too.
Feels / you haven't actually mentioned much of the whole responsibility on the other side... and then expect people from questionable low positions / low education / low finance to jump for their dinner so high and higher and then some perhaps... only to reach where it isn't that great or socially healthy either (with lots of money but guilt the way you got it and who you stressed along the way- all the way from spending you're time traveling to work so long, tp not having much time for family, no mental support from cold system, and anti-cooperation from state robbing pots regularly and raid us while we watch helpless..
I mean what do you have to say for some of that- they are in 'victim mentality' for no reasons?
The list goes on and even if you have it good, many are depressed.
Without WILL from controllers to do anything more than they do now "itz fucked up bro".
I'd like to run the simulation if you gave me money... (maybe by audio chat) but you're going to be tested on morals and ethics.
Because what to do? Hardly jobs created for such things I want to achieve as it would have been achieved by billions if controllers really wanted it? But no the tree of life is leaning towards the opposite and almost flat on it's back.
I had money, I already see some heads with money and aside from sitting on or playing yet again more money games to buy a house and rent it etc, there is not much increment in what we people want to see. Hint it's not about just money!
It would help it inflated house-prices or even expensive-cheap rent didn't exist since houses get paid for eventually, but everything going up and being pocketed screams for me 'naive' here and people using boats with holes in it telling others to ignore that.
Just where do people go if they find banks and state totally immoral as well as unskilled in caring?
Taking responsibility for your own situation (even in the good) almost means killing yourself to escape it (it seems extreme but again how do you escape what you don't have much choice in or what is totally morally misaligned / malign / malignant each step the system takes?)
Seems like you miss some major points here and don't give 'credit' to those with moral dilemmas or anything other than mentioning money and stats and numbers.
Victim mentality lol - aside from a bit maybe, err guess what - we are victims !
The "you let me down" speech could be on the horizon lol
You should play Age of Empire using "financially-extorting" settings and then let me know how fair things turn out!
Or run your simulation with me via chat!
I dont mind that its long, its more a matter of time. I am often on here while at work and at best I have 30 seconds to spare here and there. So I just dont have the time to invest in more long and detailed conversation (as much as I do appreciate it when I have the time).
My big issue is I have interest in more things than I have time for. A lot of what takes my time up is work more than personal interest. Outside of work I got the gym, and studies I do and have very little spare time in the end. Usually its the vacations where I have extra time but on the last one I had limited internet.
@freemo @modrobert
I do believe you while at the same time I have to consider your post times and frequency sometimes to say "if you wanted to you would have replied" or wouldn't leave it out completely.
Which is perfectly ok (for you) I just have to make sure the pattern fits what I think and respect limitations here.
The rest you said is still very valid to me but + / - as it's out-ranked by when someone is interested or engaged and all that "I don't have time" stuff goes out the window.
Nothing stops them - it's their passion and their everything... they will even make time / space or delay for other things. Or they might like numbers and stats and be more engaged in that :>
A: no your numbers are wrong
B:no my numbers are from here, no from there
me: err guys you're missing the morally questionable parts as well as demonstrating just the 'numbers' only viewpoints they use!
Perhaps typical not to do morally detailed work but thankfully your posts so far gift me with you thinking that is quite ok systematically atm or quite equal / fair to people overall. yikes
It's great you're doing lots too so no sweat :)
Depending on what you value: People make time for bs all the time (too many series etc) but you're ok...
When it gets interesting I'm sure you're reply but for now no need push to it It's not inconceivable stats and numbers are a lot easier.
No hard feelings Freemo.
Best not mention it :) You got your whole life to back come-back on whatever you want!
Yea there is certainly a element of prioritization for what time I do have.But its a bit random too based on what is in front of my face in the moments I have free and how much of a block of time it will take.
Like if there are 20 things that take 5 minutes I am more likely to do it than 1 thing that takes 100 minutes simply because I can dish out 5 minute increments more easily than a large block.
@freemo @modrobert
I believe you, but it blended into what I think is a touch of 'people answering what they want' and well this isn't your thing perhaps (perhaps) otherwise you could do it later or whatever that motivation and will does to people who say something but can do it / want to do it.
So anyway it's my call and I think I have see enough (without it going under any critical bar, it's all good). Everyone is into more this or more that... some can do the incremental way (do 5mins per line) else the I'm busy / I have a lot to do stuff... is forever the case until people *make it their life / business to address things*
So that's the non-accepting part of me- if it was excessive diver stuff or something similar you'd not even think about time or it's be exciting that any spare moment you could do it even with page up line by line...
But diving for you is probably not like the people evolution is for me...
so reality (back to people in general) is if you hit a nerve or if there is a good topic wohoo suddenly people are free posting like there isn't a tomorrow |:>
But again I believe you man and well your ability to say simply how it for yourself is outstanding.
Can't say much more about that!
ANECDOTE
I was volunteering on a farm - ended up staying for a few months.
I noticed the farmer was constantly doing short loops or easier stuff (or stuff that wasn't encouraging problems, a bit like facing problems in real life perhaps, why do it and feel bad or risk breaking something already broken? Why put yourself through that?
So I drew him a diagram - not sure if I still have or even if it's correct from memory but the main thing is avoiding long-term totally (or more often) = bad work (for a farmer and for human)
So in this case with freemo he's doing a lot so I trust he'll cover it but for others they are avoiding the long work or stuff to repair from their feelings or not accepting "it needs doing" or "will get worse" or "can be repair, even if we find out it can't".
For that farmer I made everything ship shape with being to strict or inflexible to 'just leave it' also... but I left the couple as they couldn't do the people work... fantastic places but still lack of essential people development which is / should be the permaculture of life... and for some like me it's unavoidable or avoidable until the worst possible moment you wished you talked about things earlier.
end of anecdote
@freemo @modrobert
Alright. I'm going to call that -
not going to label it for now.
To put aside / not respond to things based on this filter... is something to name later.
Perhaps anyway and without dumping feelings about that, it's probably with whatever that grabs our interests (such as numbers) that we really make time for doing it / working on it consciously or not.