@freemo @biologgia I'm going to wade in here because I have some thoughts. Generally speaking I don't bother, so take it for what it is @freemo, a chance at an academic discussion free of politics and whatnot.

One, I come from a personal standpoint where I used to work in a nuclear laboratory and I wore a full hazmat daily for a couple of years. Hazmat has a connotation that if it's not what you're intending, it comes off hyperbolic. I can understand your technical term, but, an N95 is not considered "hazmat" to the casual reader.

From that standpoint, and I admit that's not everyone's standpoint, an N95 is super easy. I've thrown one on every time I've gone out since I was horribly ill in December of 2019 and into January of 2020, and *irregardless of COVID* I've thoroughly enjoyed not having so much as minor sniffles in going on 3 years now and intend to keep it up. I can tell I'm healthier in my day to day life. This has led me to a lot of different decisions that I didn't anticipate, but that's a discussion for another day.

Two, my own personal experience tells me that people's immune systems are haywire right now. I don't keep a particularly large circle of friends and acquaintances, but almost every single one of them who has chosen to go on with life unimpeded has health issues right now ranging from sudden auto-immune issues to constant infections of other pathogens. The few of us who chose to be COVID cautious are 100% healthy.

This led me to do my own research as a non-medical or biologically inclined person. Thankfully my wife has a degree in neuroscience and is able to explain things to me I read in journals. What I found isn't exactly encouraging on the longterm health front, whether that's from acute issues(no, not a large percent of people die while actively sick with COVID, but multiply that times the number of infections and it's clearly an issue), post-acute issues(the raise in everything from inflammation to heart attacks to strokes to blood clots, etc. in the months after an infection), the outcomes of the people who had SARS-COV-1 or just constant reinfections.

It's not good to get a cold or the flu multiple times a year, so why would we, as scientists, fully abandon the precautionary principle here?

Sorry for the novel. I even pared it down a lot. I'm wordy...

@freemo @biologgia I want to add that I sincerely hope you're healthy and happy going forward @freemo. I'm not going to dismiss the idea of having COVID 6 times and self-reporting no issues as not being a valid data point. I just think that, in general, there's a lot you wouldn't really know yet in terms of longterm outcomes and I don't want to see anything bad happen to you because you seem like a pretty cool dude.

@BE @biologgia

>One, I come from a personal standpoint where I used to work in a nuclear laboratory and I wore a full hazmat daily for a couple of years. Hazmat has a connotation that if it's not what you're intending, it comes off hyperbolic. I can understand your technical term, but, an N95 is not considered "hazmat" to the casual reader.

I dont think the semantic point is important.. Butt the fact is if your in a lab and a disease equires a resperator, then your going to be in LevelD hasmat gear at that point, which is just splash resistant clothes (what they wear for simple PPE) plus the mask, which is all that is needed for level D. So in my mind it s very similar to hazmat.. if you want to call it PPE, go for it.. either way im not likely to support such an excessive level of response to a very low risk.

> From that standpoint, and I admit that's not everyone's standpoint, an N95 is super easy. I've thrown one on every time I've gone out since I was horribly ill in December of 2019 and into January of 2020, and *irregardless of COVID* I've thoroughly enjoyed not having so much as minor sniffles in going on 3 years now and intend to keep it up. I can tell I'm healthier in my day to day life. This has led me to a lot of different decisions that I didn't anticipate, but that's a discussion for another day.

I have seen the opposite, and in fact even some studies that would back me up here loosly. In Israel I havent seen a single mask worn in a bout a year. Not a single person in my company has called out sick in that time except one, which is statistically MUCH less than what we saw pre-COVID. No one has talked about heealth problems, nothing. The one guy who was sick did catch COVID and was back in a few days without a complaint to be heard. I got it 6 times and not a single health issue. In factt im much healthier as I've lost weight.

If you want to wearr a respirator, I certainly wont stop you... from my prospective I wont touch it, it feels like hypochondriacism at that point and not an appropriate way to live the rest of your life. The risk reward balance isnt there.

Its also worth mentioning we have countless studies showing if people try too hard to avoid "germs", such as through excessive cleaning, wearing respirators, and otherwise just living in clean-room like conditions without any exposure, then people start to develop autoimmune diseases over time. So if anything it may be causing far more harm than any possible good.

@freemo @biologgia I'm certainly not going to tell you what's going on in Israel, but I do keep tabs on mask mandates and a quick news search leads me to a Reuters article that says there was a mask mandate in indoor spaces in Israel in April, and masks are still required in healthcare settings, etc. so we're not exactly talking apples to apples compared to my location in the world where a mask hasn't been seen, even in hospitals outside of surgical rooms, since March of 2020.

I'd like to push back on the hygiene hypothesis a bit, too, with two points.

I'm not a growing child with an immune system that needs some immune stimulation.

I've never seen any reputable science indicating that constant virus exposure is a good thing. Bacteria? Sure! But I assume the fact that, personally, I have a mask on for maybe 1% of my daily life on a weekly average doesn't affect my bacterial exposure significantly, particularly with a diet rich in probiotics.

@BE

|Mandates aside, no one was following them even when the mandates were strict. I just saw a doctor yesterday, not a mask in sight there either.

@biologgia

@freemo @biologgia

Fair!

I was going to leave well enough alone here, but upon reflection I'm actually quite curious about something and I hope you'll humor me.

You say that wearing a mask is not appropriate and in fact dangerous as it may cause far more harm than good.

Do you believe I damaged my immune system while protecting myself from nuclear radiation and other particles for those years?

Is there a point at which a job in which a mask is required becomes hazardous to your health, not because of whatever you are protecting yourself from, but from the mask itself? Should those jobs have special government/academic governing body protection?

It just strikes me that if you believe that, let's say, wearing a mask 5 hours a day, or 8 hours a day is in fact hazardous to your health *in itself* that there's a whole other issue that you believe we should be discussing as scientists.

Am I reading you correctly? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just attempting to follow your logic to wrap my head around it.

@BE @freemo

I feel a couple of factors have been over looked. The main one being the Umwelt. Each place on Earth has different results from COVID-19 pandemic, where as mentioned some locations were strict with mandates and the locals followed likewise and others had mandates but no one cared. It kind of shows how much government has power over the people's actions.

I regularly traveled through such varying mandate zones. In Germany it was quite fascinating where Bundesländer like Bavaria have the most strict mandates and most people follow them e.g. wearing masks in public transit. Though in other Bundesländer it is much more relaxed, technically the mask mandate exists over complete Germany in regards to public transit though as soon as you leave Bavaria no one really cares.

A further example is air travel. Flights leaving and arriving to Germany have a mask mandate, though each airline can choose to enforce it or not. Like the German airline Lufthansa heavily enforces it with passing out masks when boarding the flight while other airlines like Lauda recommend it.

It seems like cultures and traditions that have a more relaxed view on the world also took the risks in the same view, where as cultures that have a structured view, followed the regulations to a T.

On the other point of masks causing harm: each equipment works as good as the weakest link. One sees a lot of people wearing the masks poorly like just wearing it over the mouth and having the nose stick out. Also can guarantee that most people have been using the same mask at least on a weekly basis if not longer. Plus lots are not following the best practices of removing and applying equipment.

There were some papers prior to the pandemic pointing out that masks could cause a false sense of security. As in the individuals wouldn't follow the other requirements like washing hands before eating or touching face after being in public.

Thus one can easily show what a good intended safety equipment that has been poorly handled can cause detrimental effects.

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If your environment and/or circumstances require you to wear specific equipment, then follow that. Though enforcing those same regulations onto the general public is just not feasible. Like e.g. it is required to wear a hard hat when on a construction site, though imagine putting that regulation onto the general public. It definitely will save lives, but what is the likelihood that such a situation happens in the first place.

Some people like to be ready for every horror scenario, while most are fine with not even achieving the bare minimum.

Convenience is the biggest factor in most people's decision to adopt a certain action. Like for myself during allergy season I wore the mask outside as well, although inconvenient in the moment, the outcomes were promising and quickly noticeable.

In the end, one should do one's part in society to at least not hinder it's progress. So if you are ill and you need to go among people, the least civil thing you could do is wear a mask to help prevent the dispersion of the illness.

@biologgia