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Just a reminder. Biden started is wntire career with one purpose in mind... keeping segregation alive. I will never vote for the most racist politician alive today... never.
Wasn't this quote debunked during the last US election, and easily checked before amplifying this misinformation?
It was not debunked (because it is true).. yes it was easily checked before amplifying, and was checked and found to be true before sharing.
To quote your article you just shared:
"the content in the article isn’t misleading."
Literally the fact check you **just** shared confirmed that the post here is true, and correct, and not misleading.
Thanks for confirming this was fact checked before posting and correct. Much appreciated!
Jeffrey, you posted a Qt of a picture that says one thing, and @kryptec posted a fact check debunk of the quote on that picture. Are you saying the fact check is wrong?
Quote from the fact check:
However, the claim that Biden said "I don't want my children to grow up in a jungle, a racial jungle" is false. There is no evidence Biden made that particular remark.
> Jeffrey, you posted a Qt of a picture that says one thing, and @kryptec posted a fact check debunk of the quote on that picture. Are you saying the fact check is wrong?
I am saying the fact check is misleading. While it is true the quote on the picture is not, word-for-word accurate to the quote he actually made. But it is effectively the same thing.
What he said (and i proved): "Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle"
What the article claims he said: "I don't want my children to grow up in a jungle, a racial jungle"
Those are effectively the exact same thing.
So yes not only is the fact check wrong (or rather, intentionally manipulative), but the original post and its quote is, so close to the actual quote, itseffectively the same.
> However, the claim that Biden said "I don't want my children to grow up in a jungle, a racial jungle" is false. There is no evidence Biden made that particular remark.
As per the above the fact check was lying. Here is the link to the 1981 transcript of his congressional testimony when the above quote was uttered as proof:
@freemo @ambihelical @unabomber
Perhaps I'm missing it, but the pdf @freemo shared also does not contain that quote, or the word jungle at all?
When you present something in quotations like that, as @ambihelical alludes, you're claiming that it is 'word-for-word accurate'.
I really don't know Biden's political history, but this appears to be a fabricated quote.
Actually you are correct. I am sorry, the link itself I pasted the wrong one. Here is the correct link (it was in 1977 he said it, though as you saw from the 1981 link he was still pushing to keep segregation alive even years later, it was the central point of his early career):
To quote the article above:
"Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle"
Which is pretty close to word-for-word with the image posted here.
OK, the quote is accurate, although out of context like most cherry picked quotes. To me that seems like an unfortunate choice of words, something that Biden is famous for (foot in mouth disease). If you read what he said here and in the original article you posted, his position is fairly reasonable and not racist, in my opinion anyway.
He was saying that busing was disruptive to both black and white students, as well as disruptive to the all-black schools and all-white schools themselves. Most of that is because of racism, but that racism was the racism of the white people attending and having children at the formerly all-white schools. I lived through some of those years, and I remember some of the racism (as a very young white boy) and I know I did not see the worst of it. Right or wrong, Biden was being pragmatic, this "solution" did not seem be a good one.
And I think he was both right and wrong. There was no massive outbreaks of violence as he feared, and it did help some blacks of that era, but it didn't result in the integration of society to any significant degree, or at least to the degree hoped. Most schools today are not racially diverse, reflecting the fact that society isn't either.
Yes I know what Biden said... but with all politicians they say what will make both sides happy, not what their actions reflect. So lets look at bidens position step by step and see if, like you say, it reflects as someone who is not racist or bias, and is looking out for everyopne, shall we... because what you just described sounds like well worded nonsense to me the second i consider it for even a moment.
Before I address your quotes lets start with biden... so he doesnt want his kids to grow up in a "racial jungle"... can you define what you think Biden meant by a "racial jungle" that seems to match what you said about his views on segregation? Like your saying busing is "disruptive", so clearly when he said "racial jungle" he didnt mean he was against the mixing of races... but against..... disruption? Disruption == racial jungle? What, his wording in no way makes sense with what he claims his poisition is? This phrasing alone is enough to see his words are hollow and makes no sense and that it was purely racially motivated.
But hey, even though out of the gate nothing adds up lets go further an analyze his claimed position...
> He was saying that busing was disruptive to both black and white students, as well as disruptive to the all-black schools and all-white schools themselves.
Bussing is literally the act of a black person getting on a bus and getting taken to the closest white school rather than the black school they were segregated into.
So clearly he opposed this... but its cause its "disruptive" not because of anything related to race? Ok... so if not race related what is disruptive about the bus that picks up exclusively white kids for the exclusivly white school to pick up a black kid? Why isnt it disruptive when they pick up the white kids from even farther away (which is sometimes the case)? Like his argument wasnt that we should outlaw bussing beyond a certain distance, he is perfectly fine with all the long-haul bus rides to pick up the white kids to keep segregation alive... but now apprently letting farther away white kids go to the black kids school, and the closer black kids go to the white kids school, apparently THAT is disruptive?
See why this isnt adding up. apparently the only thing really special here is that the kids are black, other than that there is nothing more disruptive about picking up a black kid then there is about picking up a white kid.
> Most of that is because of racism, but that racism was the racism of the white people attending and having children at the formerly all-white schools.
Ok so sounds like we agree, what he meant by disruptive is "Having black kids at all white schools will piss off the white people and will become disruptive"... basically what he was saying is white people get upset when they are told they cant segregate black people, so lets keep segregation alive so we dont create disruption....
> Right or wrong, Biden was being pragmatic, this "solution" did not seem be a good one.
Pragmatic and racist is still racist. "White people are racist and therefore making racist illegal will be disruptive, therefore I will oppose any laws that tries to end segregation"... pragmatic or not it is racist, and it is wrong... being pragmatic about your racism doesnt give you a pass to your racism.
A lot here, so I'll point out a few things. Picking up a black kid isn't disruptive, it's what happens at the school after that. Which is they encounter a subset of hostile racist white kids.
I think we do agree on the racism. His poorly chosen words * I think * meant that he thought there will be more fights and disruptions or outright and significant violence because of that racism. I don't know of course. This may be hateful racism, or it may be ignorance, but I prefer to give him some benefit of the doubt and think he was more ignorant than hateful.
I didn't mean he was being pragmatic about his own racism, just about the people he had to get votes from. I don't doubt that he may have been influenced by his upbringing in the 40's and 50's in a blue collar town. So you may be right about some biases at that point in his career.
But I don't agree that he didn't grow. Nor do I think he was ever hateful in whatever bias he did have. By introspection I know that biases can be present but not based on hate, just ignorance. These biases are far easier to grow out of and work on, and sometimes you just learn and they go away without you even noticing.
> A lot here, so I’ll point out a few things. Picking up a black kid isn’t disruptive, it’s what happens at the school after that. Which is they encounter a subset of hostile racist white kids.
>
> I think we do agree on the racism. His poorly chosen words * I think * meant that he thought there will be more fights and disruptions or outright and significant violence because of that racism. I don’t know of course. This may be hateful racism, or it may be ignorance, but I prefer to give him some benefit of the doubt and think he was more ignorant than hateful.
Sounds like we mostly agree... either he was racist, or other people were racist. So he decided as a nation we should intentionally continue to carry out clearly racist policies because if we dont racist people might get mad and act out.
Either way we agree his actions were intentionally choosen by him because he knew they were racist and he thought intentionally supporting this racism would be the best thing for the country.. he was just being pragmatic.
Ok sure then, we agree, maybe he wasnt a racist, maybe he was, but we both agree 100% he supported the racists agenda, and did so specifically because it was racist.
> But I don’t agree that he didn’t grow. Nor do I think he was ever hateful in whatever bias he did have.
I mean, im sure the people who kept blacks as slave didnt all do it out of hate either.. they were just pragmatic because they knew those blacks were subhuman and not capable of self-determination, so im sure they were the good guys and totally loving and caring father figures as slave owners... guess what, as I said before, just because your evil and racist because you'
ve convinced yourself it is the best thing for society and in no way out of hate... that still makes you an evil racist.
Just to be clear, when you do evil things, just because you can weave an elaborate tale as to how you can incorrectly reason that the thing isnt evil, doesnt somehow make what you did less evil. Supporting racism becuase you think its what is best for the blacks doesnt make you less racist.
Regardless of anything my original point is true.
Biden was a central pro-segregation figure for most of the start of his career. Regardless of anything he said he actively voted against all efforts to desegregate at the time and never once proposed or voted for a single bill (that I know of or can find when researching) that was an attempt at desegregation.
He was a desegregationists based on his actions... very clearly so, and a well known central figure in the opposition to desegregation.... full stop
Honestly I don't really care about how he started his career, but rather how he ended it. As I said, personal growth happens. And anyway I think he had a reasonable point back in the day, and was right that it would not work, it didn't. Maybe he had the wrong personal motivational reasons, we will never know.
What do you mean "it didnt" ... it literally did.
Bussing was enacted and segregation broken. White and black kids went to schools now based not on their race but which school was closer as it should be)...
Now the reason people sometimes claim it failed, incorrectly, is because white people just moved to address this. White and blacks started to move closer to the good schools to try to game the system. The rich wound up at good schools again, the poor at poor schools again. People sometimes use that to claim it failed.
In reality it succeeded.. because while the it may not have managed to get the the rich and the poor to mix, that was never the goal. The goal was to force the black and the white to mix, which is exactly what this did. First they were mixed because the districts overlapped... then they mixed because both black and whites who could afford to move both moved to rich districts. Causeing equal oppertunity by skin color and ultimately mixed race schools.
The issue now was that while it had its intended goal of mixing the races, now we have mixed race rich kids seperate from mixed race black kids. Thankfully (sarcastic) since society cares more about your race than your income this meant people actually cared about the abysmal school conditions for poor (white kids) so now white people actually were forced to care enough to start wanting to see previously all-black schools get funding.
Fast forward a bit more time and the busing worked twice over... first to get whites and blacks to mix, then again by getting funding to the now mixed schools.
We have the hindsight of history and can see quite clear it had the intended result, because its history now.
And yes, I too care a lot more about the fact that he is still currently a raging racist, than the fact that he used to be a raging racist.
He is still pulling the same racist shit where he exploits minorities for his own benefit then spins a web of lies to make it sound like his racism was actually out of loving father like sheppard mentality of him doing what is best for the black race, even if they dont know whats good for them, daddy Biden does... after all, if you dont vote for daddy biden "you ain't black" (as he himself as said... not the only time he ever used the word ain't was when talking to black people which apparently he felt he had to speak incorrect english to them if they were to be able to follow along or something).
@freemo @kryptec @unabomber I just don’t see that. At all. No problem we disagree have a nice day.
Yea no problem with disagreeing... I mean lets face it, Biden is a politician. Tricky you into thinking he isnt racist when he literally acts like a racist right in front of you (or anything else for that matter) is exactly what politicians are good at.. So no surprise you fell for it too. I mean, he would have never won if he wasnt able to lie to people and get away with it.
It s very hard for me to understand how someone could fall for it, when to me it is so blatantly obvious. But when everyone is falling for it I guess it isnt as obvious as I thought.
Welp, I wanted to leave this, but here's what I see from my point of view. You haven't presented any thing other than your subjective and biased evaluation of Biden's more recent career. Where are the facts you are using to decide this? You base everything on his early career and your entirely biased impression of his behavior. What the fuck is this "daddy biden" bullshit? This is not a fact, this is something you made up. You can decide a lot of things about a person if you assume, it doesn't make them correct or even reasonable. In fact you are not using reason at all.
However, objectively, he has demonstrated that indeed he is not a "raging racist" as you insist, but a pragmatic politician who supports social programs that would actually make a difference in society. Measured against some in the right who actively work to destroy such programs, I think it's not hard to see where the racism lies.
I'm saying this as someone who would prefer someone else, didn't vote for him in the primary, and thought he was not the best candidate by far. But "raging racist"? That's a bit rich considering what actual raging racists do.
> You haven’t presented any thing other than your subjective and biased evaluation of Biden’s more recent career.
Huh? Nothing in this post or the thread is related to his recent career other than one or two minor comments when addressing people claiming he changed.
> Where are the facts you are using to decide this?
Well this thread is about his past, not his present... The facts? I've so far presented quite a few cited sources for various points. But fundementally I provided a transcript of congress from 1977 showing him using extremely racist language, proposing extremely racist policy, and explaining it as non-racist with nonsensical claims that dont add up and is not reflected by his stance at the time.
I'd say thats pretty solid facts that even the most biased person in his favor should be able to see (though apparently not)
> You base everything on his early career and your entirely biased impression of his behavior.
The whole thread is about his past behavior. I mean clearly you dont like my interpritation of him in the present.. but what does that have to do the the thread or the debate where apparently we disagree about that past. Sounds like you are disagreeing on my opinion about him in the present, and for some very strange reason using that to justify you disagreeing with me on a debate specifically about how he acted int he past....
That said, no, its also based on his behavior in the present.. which I have explained multiple times how it is clear his actions are racially motivated.
One such fact is his exploiting minorities to advance his own carrer.. this is probably the hardest one to deny. He has almost exclusively hired only minorities, often unqualified. The skew is so over the top and so often with people who are just abysmal on paper, that I think its clear to anyone who is even remotely objective he is intentionally doing it to exploit them for his own image. If it were actually to help the minority community we would see a stronger focus on representation and qualifications rather than just trying to hire any minority who is willing to.
> What the fuck is this “daddy biden” bullshit? This is not a fact, this is something you made up.
Nope didnt make it up at all... It is directly from his actions and quotes that demonstrates this.. I didnt make it up and pull it out of my ass. I provided facts that demonstrated it. You are welcome to disagree of course, but to suggest its just something i fabricated, rather than being directly describing something he said, is an important distinction.
While most of what he says is carefully rehearsed to make sure his racism doesnt show through, he constantly slips up and shows very clearly his racist mindset, part of that is his superiority complex (what im refering to when I say he sees himself as a daddy figure). There are so many examples of this I wont go into all of it. But one thing I pointed out is his language when talking to minorites... where he clearly sees himself as the superior and often uses language treats them as lesser... "If you dont vote for me you aint black" is a perfect example of that, and something he said, what like a year ago? He thinks of himself as superior to blacks... clearly if they dont agree with him, and support him, they arent black, cause he knows more about what it means to be black than a black person apparently and they should defer to him or else they cant possibly be black...
If you cant see the racist, and father complex nonsense in that.. in a white person telling a black person if they dont agree with their decisions they aint black.... well then there is no hope for you to see it I guess...
Also its important to note he almost never uses the improper english word "aint" except the one time he addressed blacks. You dont think it shows a racist mindset that he feels when he talks to blacks he has to use broken and incorrect grammar to be relatable?
> You can decide a lot of things about a person if you assume, it doesn’t make them correct or even reasonable. In fact you are not using reason at all.
I mean I literally led you through the reasoning step by step... his choice of language exclusive to talking to black people, his phrasing that black people arent black if they dont agree with him, etc... id say if anything the fact that I've explained this to you once already and your pretending like there is no reasoning at all simply because you may not agree with the interptiation I think shows that you are far far more bias than me. You literally blanked on a whole conversation as if it didnt happen to justify your bias... While I may (or may not) be wrong, my bias has never caused me to blank on a whole opinion and just assume it was fabricated ignoring the reasoning explained to me as if it never existed....
> However, objectively, he has demonstrated that indeed he is not a “raging racist” as you insist, but a pragmatic politician who supports social programs that would actually make a difference in society.
I mean if thats what you want to call segregation... Funny thing is we have history to know without a doubt this is flat out wrong. Bussing went through without out him... and guess what, it was a success as is obvious by the fact that now all schools have been integrated.
> Measured against some in the right who actively work to destroy such programs, I think it’s not hard to see where the racism lies.
Ahh now your bias really shows. The fact that you think talking about some other group of people being racists somehow belongs in argument about Biden's racism is extremely telling that you are seeking nonsensical scapecoats. Anyone with a lick of reason in this would know that another group or persons racism in no way effects if Biden is racist or not... that fact you tried to play that card shows you, far more than me, have abandoned reason and instead are just grasping at straws.
> I’m saying this as someone who would prefer someone else, didn’t vote for him in the primary, and thought he was not the best candidate by far. But “raging racist”? That’s a bit rich considering what actual raging racists do.
I think you are confusing a raging racist who goes out of their way to hide it, vs slightly less raging racists who go out of their way **not** to hide it.
Trump obviously has some racism of his own, for example... yet I cant think of anythign he has done that actually holds a candle to spending the better part of a decade trying to keep black kids out of white schools, and vice versa.
Look he is a liar and has exploited black people. He did it so people would defend him when called a racist and ultimately win the election. The exploitation and manipulation has worked on you, exactly the way he has wanted it, despite the obvious **facts** staring you int he face.. It is what it is.
"Huh? Nothing in this post or the thread is related to his recent career other than one or two minor comments when addressing people claiming he changed."
Sorry I most have gotten confused by the use of the present tense here, this is when the thread became about the present:
"And yes, I too care a lot more about the fact that he is still currently a raging racist, than the fact that he used to be a raging racist."
I'm not going to pick apart your justification of your subjective interpretation of Biden's hiring and his speech patterns. You clearly have made up your mind. I will admit that you made me laugh. Your interpretation is kind of unique, I've never heard anyone claim that someone hiring a majority of minorities must mean he is racist.
But this one really takes the cake:
"He thinks of himself as superior to blacks… clearly if they dont agree with him, and support him, they arent black, cause he knows more about what it means to be black than a black person apparently and they should defer to him or else they cant possibly be black…"
You realize you are reading so much into one silly statement that it is completely ludicrous, right? This one statement tells me you have lost all reason on the man. If nothing else, think on your statement a while, maybe you will see what I mean.
"I mean if thats what you want to call segregation… Funny thing is we have history to know without a doubt this is flat out wrong. Bussing went through without out him… and guess what, it was a success as is obvious by the fact that now all schools have been integrated."
Lol, US schools are not that integrated. It's not hard to find statistics saying so. Oh sure it's probably better than it was, but no where near racially diverse in most areas.
"Ahh now your bias really shows. The fact that you think talking about some other group of people being racists somehow belongs in argument about Biden’s racism is extremely telling that you are seeking nonsensical scapecoats. Anyone with a lick of reason in this would know that another group or persons racism in no way effects if Biden is racist or not… that fact you tried to play that card shows you, far more than me, have abandoned reason and instead are just grasping at straws."
This is a fair point, it's not about the right's racism. I was trying to make a point about the social programs that Biden has and does support.
"Look he is a liar and has exploited black people. He did it so people would defend him when called a racist and ultimately win the election. The exploitation and manipulation has worked on you, exactly the way he has wanted it, despite the obvious facts staring you int he face.. It is what it is."
Calling a politician a liar is redundant. I don't watch much media, so I doubt he is manipulating me in any way. I just look at what he supports and his actions. If his actions are positive to society, I don't care if he's doing it to be successful as a politician, or if he really cares deeply. I don't know what he is gaining by such alleged exploitation though. He should be retired and playing golf. He has enough money. He is not trying to upend democracy and become a dictator, so there is no upside as far as power goes. Why do you think he is trying to exploit our gullibility and support social programs like fair housing and other public-good things even though he (according to you) thinks like a raging racist?
@kryptec
by the way, aside from your own link that proves the post I boosted was accurate, here is the actual first-hand source.
In 1981 desegregation was under way through an effort to bus black students in all-black schools to segregated white-schools so they can desegregate them and allow the blacks to get the same quality education as these better funded schools could provide.
He spent most of his early career trying to fight these and really all desegregation efforts still ongoing at the time. In fact, he was one of the most vocal segregationists in congress at the time.
Here is a 1982 Senate hearing in which Biden's testimony is recorded. Not only does he make it clear he opposes these desegregation efforts, but it is also the first time he used the "racial jungle" quote in some form and very clearly confirms that a very similar variation of the quote has been spoken by Biden as early as 1982.
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/1401-school-busing-hearings-1981/720c19a5e1cf89938c57/optimized/full.pdf#page=1
@unabomber