@voidabyss

> Someone engaging in self-harm is an indication of underlying emotional distress or mental health issue.

This statement isnt true all the time. Obviously some people who engage in self-harm sure, that is true. But the vast majority of self-harm this isnt true.

When you eat a burger instead of a salad, that is harmful. Its self harm, we just accept it. You arent mentally ill for it.

When someone gets a tattoo, or more to the point, scarification work, it isnt due to a mental illness, its due to wanting a particular aesthetic.

So no this fundemental statement isnt automatically true. Is self harm only immoral when its due to underlying mental health or distress? Or is it always immoral?

> Morality stems from your belief system

I mean this is true for literally everything you believe, the things you believe are part of your system of believing. I dont think this statement is adding anything. You still need to have reasoning for why you beleive a thing however if it is to have any merit as an idea.

> ...and your ability to feel compassion.

This feels like the closest we have gotten to an answer that seems to have some substance to it.

Would you agree with me to say compassion is basically saying you dont like to see people suffering, it makes you feel bad, and thus compassion compels us to try to prevent things that cause suffering?

> If you don’t feel any compassion toward someone engaging in self-harm nor your belief system don’t condone it, that might be an indication of a psychopathic tendencies.

It might be, but whether im psychopathic or not im not sure is all that relevant tot he question of how to check if something is moral or not.

But as per the above, I hope we agree not **all** self harm is due to underlying suffering or mental illness. So even if i am quite compassionate I should only feel bad for people where self-harm is using in a way that causes them to suffer (or is due to them suffering) no?

@freemo
> But as per the above, I hope we agree not all self harm is due to underlying suffering or mental illness.

I don't agree with that assessment, nor the examples your mentioned as "self-harm".

Here are some examples of self-harm and people engaging in those should seek help.

- Self-harm: This refers to intentionally causing harm to oneself, such as cutting, burning, or hitting oneself.
- Eating disorders: Conditions like anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa, and binge eating disorder are considered self-deviant behaviors as they involve unhealthy relationships with food and body image.
- Substance abuse: Engaging in excessive and harmful use of drugs or alcohol can be considered a form of self-deviance.
- Compulsive gambling: When someone develops an uncontrollable urge to gamble, even to the point of causing financial and personal problems, it is considered a self-deviant behavior.
- Addictive behaviors: This includes any behavior that becomes compulsive and interferes with daily life, such as excessive internet use, gaming addiction, or shopping addiction.

@voidabyss

> I don’t agree with that assessment, nor the examples your mentioned as “self-harm”.

Ok sure lets go through it then.

> Here are some examples of self-harm and people engaging in those should seek help.

We are trying to figure out the rules, so jumping to examples is great, but that doesnt help unless you can tell me the rules that determine if an example qualifies. In this case you are trying to define what self-harm is, but the examples dont get us there... even if i use them they contradict. for example....

> Self-harm: This refers to intentionally causing harm to oneself, such as cutting, burning, or hitting oneself.

Ok so just this example alone agrees with most of my examples.

Eating extremely unhealthy food causes harm, I think thats pretty undeniable. Also when we eat extremely unhealthy food it is intentional. So it meets your two criteria for what is self harm in this example, being that it is harmful and intention to one's self.

Same thing for my other examples, tattoos, scarification, literally everything i listed qualifies under your statement of what self harm is above.. yet you claim it isnt... why?

For me the examples you are giving feel alot more like "things that are not good to do" and a lot less like "things that are immoral to do". Making bad decisions isnt the same as making immoral decisions.

@freemo
> I hope we agree not all self harm is due to underlying suffering or mental illness.

The is a category of self-harm that might not be due to underlying suffering or mental illness, which is Self-sacrifice, it involves enduring hardship and putting the needs and welfare of others before one's own, like voluntary soldiers, doctors, ems, nurses, etc. Self-sacrifice is often motivated by compassion, love, and a sense of duty towards others.

@voidabyss

> The is a category of self-harm that might not be due to underlying suffering or mental illness, which is Self-sacrifice, it involves enduring hardship and putting the needs and welfare of others before one’s own, like voluntary soldiers, doctors, ems, nurses, etc. Self-sacrifice is often motivated by compassion, love, and a sense of duty towards others.

Sure that exists too... but are you saying those are the only two?

What about things that harm ones self, but is not due to any underlying unhealthy mental state, and also doesnt benefit anyone else.

A tattoo or scarification is an example I would think you would agree with. I would hope you agree that these are not (usually) due to mental illness, they also dont benefit others, and do in fact cause harm to ones self. So how do we handle that in your model? Its clearly self-harm, but in your model its an exception somehow? why?

@freemo
> A tattoo or scarification is an example I would think you would agree with. I would hope you agree that these are not (usually) due to mental illness, they also dont benefit others, and do in fact cause harm to ones self. So how do we handle that in your model? Its clearly self-harm, but in your model its an exception somehow? why?

As I mentioned before, it's not only mental illness, It might be an emotional distress, underlying suffering or a coping mechanism, etc. The result is a net negative for the individual and society.

https://phys.org/news/2017-09-nanoparticles-tattoos-circulate-body.html

@voidabyss

> As I mentioned before, it’s not only mental illness, It might be an emotional distress, underlying suffering or a coping mechanism, etc.

Sure yea I can go with that.. im just trying to understand.

Are you suggesting that all people who get tattoos have some underlying emotional distress or suffering, and therefore is self harm? Or are you saying that they dont, and it is only self harm if it harms the self and is out of mental illness or distress. Harming ones self not out of mental illness or distress is not self-harm? or it is?

> The result is a net negative for the individual and society.

Did you really mean "and" here, or did you maybe mean "or"?

A tattoo causes a net negative for the individual but it iis **very** small. There is some risk of infection or complications, as well as damage to the skin. So the net harm for the individual while small is non-zero.

So if the criteria here is an "or", then tattoo would qualify as self-harm no? Or perhaps you really did mean and, in which case we would agree by those criteria it is not self harm as only one of the two conditions is met.

That said if you did mean and, that would mean self harm that doesnt effect society, even out of mental illness by these criteria is perfectly ok. This would suggest that if someone is disliked by more people than they are liked they can commit suicide and that is perfectly ok because it harms the self but not society.

@freemo

>Are you suggesting that all people who get tattoos have some underlying emotional distress or suffering, and therefore is self harm?

No, many do that for those reasons, some people just copy what others do.(Herd mentality)
What determine self-harm is the net negative outcome on the individual and society unless it’s self-sacrifice.

The rule here is if it bad for the individual, it’s bad for society unless self-sacrifice.

Self-sacrifice might be perceived as bad for the individual but it’s a net positive for society.

@voidabyss Ok so i think i may understand your rule system now, let me recap and you can tell me if its accurate:

> What determine self-harm is the net negative outcome on the individual and society unless it’s self-sacrifice.
>
> The rule here is if it bad for the individual, it’s bad for society unless self-sacrifice.

Ok so self-harm, when a sacrafice for others, is morally ok.

self-harm that is not a sacrafice for others is always wrong.

Does mental illness and distress form a requirement here at all, or is that just an explanation, that self harm will always coincide with mental health issues and it isnt the mental health issues that make it immoral but rather they are a symptom that is always linked to self harm?

> Self-sacrifice might be perceived as bad for the individual but it’s a net positive for society.

This part I get and am fine with.

Assuming my above interpritation is correct im still a bit confused. You said tattoos and scarification was **not** considered immoral. Yet it does objectively produce self harm (however small) some it still appears to be at odds with your wsystem since you said it is moral yet your "rules" would suggest it isnt.

Am I mixing something up?

@freemo

> You said tattoos and scarification was **not** considered immoral

Where did I mentioned that? It is self-harm therefore it's immoral, I posted research study that mentioned the harm of tattooing on the immune system.
https://phys.org/news/2017-09-nanoparticles-tattoos-circulate-body.html

>The scientists report strong evidence for both migration and long-term deposition of toxic elements and tattoo pigments, as well as for conformational alterations of biomolecules that are sometimes linked to cutaneous inflammation and other adversities upon tattooing.

@voidabyss

> Where did I mentioned that?

Either I misread or you misspoke.. either way not important since you clarified.

> It is self-harm therefore it’s immoral, I posted research study that mentioned the harm of tattooing on the immune system.

Ok so i think i got your system down then... so this leaves me thining there are tons of examples that would be immoral by your example, but seems rather absurd (and i mentioned some.

* Tattoos and scarification - We covered this

* It is immortal every single time you eat anything unhealth.. a life of anything less than salads and exercise every day is immoral.

* Even little things like staying up late one night makes you an immoral person