@realcaseyrollins

Im getting my info largely from israeli news and videos as my israeli friends are sending it to me... Thats what they described and showed me. What part do you disagree with?

@freemo I disagree that she wasn’t talking about #Hamas, because she was.

When the situation started, the first thing she did on #X / #Twitter was root for #Palestine. Not the worst thing in the world to post, but the second thing she did was boost a tweet/xeet that downplayed the paragliding attack on the #EDM festival in #Israel. On #Instagram she also explicitly downplayed #Hamas as a group, calling them mere “resistance”. So when she talks later about “resistance”, it’s safe to say she’s not merely talking about responses to #Israel’s actions, but #Hamas’ provocations as well.

@freemo It’s also worth noting that despite being outspoken since the attack began, she has yet to utter a single word to condemn anything that #Hamas has done, which should also serve as a red flag.

@realcaseyrollins I've never heard you say a single word to condemn anything Israel has done, despite them being an active part in genocide and war crimes every day for the last 80 years.

Should that server as a red flag to me? By your logic it should (it doesnt other than to indicate bias, your still cool thouhg :) )

@freemo I’m pretty sure that I’ve condemned what #Israel has done before, as I have never been a fan of their government. I’m not familiar with how they’ve treated the people of #Palestine in general, but I do know that they’re heavy-handed and decreasing democracy within the country, are authoritarian and to my knowledge oppress #LGBT people to some extent as well.

While I haven’t condemned much of what they’ve done following #Hamas’ attack against them, as I can understand why they’d do it and they have limited options when it comes to conquering the very grave and legitimate and immediate threat of #Hamas (although I am considering condemning their siege, and this morning noted that sieges are against the #GenevaConvention), I’ve also (softly, and made sure to say it’s just a theory since I have no evidence) repeatedly accused the state of allowing this attack to happen intentionally as a bid to either unify the nation around #BibiNetanyahu (which I have mentioned in direct parallel to how #GeorgeWBush got popular after the 9/11 attack, and pointed out this afternoon has happened as he got the major opposition party #NationalUnity to rally around him, who I presume either he or the state of #Israel has mistreated in their efforts to slowly snuff out the remaining lights of democracy in #Israel), or in order to justify more aggressive attacks against #Palestine, which I specifically called a “black mark” and something that, if true, they should be held accountable for once the war is over.

So there’s plenty of complain about when it comes to #Israel, even ignoring their land dispute with #Palestine. I admit that I am relatively ignorant and trying to learn more on my own, but even though I’d posit that #Israel is probably the best, most moral, most peaceful, and most democratic nation in the immediate region, they are still at the very least bad, if not awful, as a state, to the extent of which that no western society that values democracy and freedom should be supporting financially, at least without some very stringent conditions (which is something I have said since the violence happened), and I would advocate for the #USA pulling all support for #Israel entirely once the war is over and #Hamas is (hopefully) defeated.

All of that said, there is absolutely nothing that #Israel has done that justifies #Hamas’ escalations, at the very least, if not their attacks here.

@freemo This is a bit beyond the original point that #MiaKhalifa supports #Hamas though.

@realcaseyrollins

> I’m pretty sure that I’ve condemned what #Israel has done before, as I have never been a fan of their government. I’m not familiar with how they’ve treated the people of #Palestine in general, but I do know that they’re heavy-handed and decreasing democracy within the country, are authoritarian and to my knowledge oppress #LGBT people to some extent as well.

This sounds like far more of a "downplay" than the post you said.. when the Israelis are using small children as human shields during attacks, and this and countless war crimes were official filed with the internation court, which they have refused to show for... then yea thats as much of a downplay as the description you just gave..

I get that its because, as you said, you havent read up on it.. but willful ignorance is as much of a bias as anything else. And Mia may just be as willfully ignorant as you as the other side.

Both of you, as people with bias, seem to be demonstrating that bias against the sides in equal yet opposite ways.

> While I haven’t condemned much of what they’ve done following #Hamas’ attack against them, as I can understand why they’d do it

Sure but then one can argue why were you condeming them right up until the hamas attack? Like they were commiting war crimes right uo until the hamas cranked it up to 11, and no one was saying anything... While it doesnt excuse the hamas the fact is when you commit war crimes and genocide on a people for 80 years you should expect them to become increasingly radicalized.

The hamas in all their brutality are the result of Israel in all its brutality, and vice versa, israel's brutality is the result of the hamas.. The only difference is that the palestinians lived there for 3000 years ... so ther eis that.

@freemo

This sounds like far more of a “downplay” than the post you said.. when the Israelis are using small children as human shields during attacks, and this and countless war crimes were official filed with the internation court, which they have refused to show for… then yea thats as much of a downplay as the description you just gave..

I cannot speak to what I don’t know about. I’m not going to “downplay”, or condemn, #Israel using, for example, human shields, when I don’t know for sure that they have done that before.

I get that its because, as you said, you havent read up on it.. but willful ignorance is as much of a bias as anything else. And Mia may just be as willfully ignorant as you as the other side.

I’m surprised that you would say that I’m willfully ignorant, honestly. I have explained many times that I’ve not had the time to do research on the subject, but have already began some light research work this week. And I am not sure that #MiaKhalifa is willfully ignorant, there’s no way that I’d be able to tell. I barely know anything about her, I didn’t know who she was until I saw her in an episode of #Ramy that my friend showed me when he lead me through a watchthrough of that show, and he mentioned that she was a porn star, and that made her appearance in the episode funny, or something. I never got it, but then again I didn’t grow up watching her videos either.

@realcaseyrollins

> I cannot speak to what I don’t know about. I’m not going to “downplay”, or condemn, #Israel using, for example, human shields, when I don’t know for sure that they have done that before.

This is kinda my point though... you seem to "know" all this (very valid) things about what the hamas did.. yet you selectively known nothing about the attorcities that israel has done... Both of these are quite visible and easy knowledge to have.

So my point is, having willful ignorance of one side and not the other still holds you accountable for your bias. You are in completer control of what you know, so you are entierly responsible for learning about one side in a debate and not the other... ignorance, when it is known and not resolves, is not an excuse IMO

Nothing person of course,, thats just the hard truth.

@freemo I certainly understand your opinion, but my life consists of a little bit more than studying things and learning what I want to know. Otherwise, I’d already know how to pick locks.

They oppress the alphabet people?

Nice!

We know you’re a fucktard from your last sentence.

Going back 3k years on a territory that’s been in dispute for 3k years shows just how retarded you are.

@d9dba0e072bdb353dfb0020de159126af47e69e133ea91bbd48e8bede37320e2

Huh, I said the exact opposite of what your saying I said... I was saying it makes no sense to go back 3k years...

@realcaseyrollins

“The only difference is the Palestinians lived there for 3k years, so there’s that.”

It’s exactly what you said.

@d9dba0e072bdb353dfb0020de159126af47e69e133ea91bbd48e8bede37320e2

right.. its not about who had it first, nor even about the 3k years... its about people invading a land who havent lived there in any of their recorded history, or even written history.. and invading people who have lived on that land for generations going back before recorded history.

The land being in dispute changes nothing for me. The people who hav ea right to the land are the people born there.. .. beyond the last generation or two it doesnt matter all that much.

@realcaseyrollins

The post reads "No you dont understand... The flew into occupied territory on hang gliders"... What about that statement is inaccurate... Every word of that is entierly factually true, none of that actually supports Hamas, it is simply a statement of fact, that is, exactly what they did. What part of that statement do you even disagree with?

And note you cant say "it leaves out the details of the massacre"... cause while this is true, it also wasnt her post, AND since i dont know what the post is in reply to I cant say if that omission was out of bias or out of irrelavance to whatever point might have been made there.

@freemo It’s not a lie of commission, it’s a lie of omission, and an obvious attempt to downplay what happened.

Imagine if I had said, the hour the planes hit the twin towers on 9/11, “well, we provoked them, y’know” and said nothing about the attack, or American casualties and victims, or how bad the attack was. One could very reasonably infer that I’d be supporting the act of terror due to my downplaying of the situation and deflection of blame.

This is why #HasanPiker got in so much trouble when he said “America deserved 9/11”, even though he technically had his facts right, he just explained himself very badly, and deflected blame as well. Trying to justify the actions of terrorists makes it seem like you support them.

@realcaseyrollins

> Imagine if I had said, the hour the planes hit the twin towers on 9/11, “well, we provoked them, y’know” and said nothing about the attack, or American casualties and victims, or how bad the attack was. One could very reasonably infer that I’d be supporting the act of terror due to my downplaying of the situation and deflection of blame.

That isnt a remotely equal analogy.. it would be more like saying. Lets look at the original quote we are turnigninto an analogy again:

> No you dont understand. They flew into occupied territory on hang gliders

your quote does not at all line up with that one. It would be more like if the following was said about 911:

"No you don't understand they used planes in forign USA territory"

While that clearly doesnt paint the full picture of 911 no one would read that and go "thats a lie of omission"... no one would think it is acting like they didnt fly those planes into towers... its just, people know they were flown into towers, it wasnt needed to say that, its assumed, the narrative is known.

@freemo I’m not sure why you’re reaching so much on this. It’s one thing to support #Palestine, but that’s completely different from downplaying, supporting, and joking about terrorism.

@realcaseyrollins

I agree they are very different things.

What I see is a member of the community who has been abused cheering the fact that her people have finally been able to blow the walls of their prison and escape.. that was a huge freedom moment for them as a tortured and abused people... I think her reaction, especially with her going out of her way not to support hamas but only supporting the rioting people themselves and their escape throught he wall.. i think that shows remarkable restraint for a person whose community and family have been the victim for so long

I saw the same for the isralis by the way... many of them make excuses for the genocide and war crime of their own government. I often say how their support of terrorism is because of the same effect, they have had so many people die due to this war they just arent thinking straight, so as long as they dont actively support the terrorism and instead turn a blind eye, while it isnt right, as a victim as well I can understand how that mentality occurs at the hands of brutality.

@freemo Would you be willing to admit that she called #Hamas “resistance”, and that she supports “resistance”?

@realcaseyrollins

She answered that for us. let me find the quote so I can judge it.. one sense.

@freemo https://social.teci.world/notice/AagEUkFkgJMSKu5y0u

@realcaseyrollins

"Hamas was born as a means of resistance"

Though in context she said (and i am paraphrasing)... that hamas was formed 20 years after israel started exterminating her people.. it was born as a direct result of unjust mass murder commited ont he palistinians...

She is right... look i dont justify the terrorism... but if someone is terroristic to you for 20 years straight, and you have no means to do anything about it other than to just watch your people get slaughtered... yea your going to rise up as a means of resistance. And while i still do not justify it, id o understand meeting terror with equal terror.. after 20 years fighting back int he same way you have been treated isnt right (two wrongs dont make a right) but it is **expected**. There is a big difference between whats right,a nd what is the natural consequence of an injustice.

If i try to kill someone their going to try to kill me. Doesnt make it right, but it does make it expected.

@realcaseyrollins By the way her videos is exactly correct... There is no histoical record of any country named israel before the 40's... hamas and terrorism largely arose as a direct result of Israel's invading prior to that there was plenty of confllict and war, but the vast majority of the modern day radicalization was the result of israel and its actions over 80 years.

@freemo

There is no histoical record of any country named israel before the 40’s

That stance still shocks me…but I’ll wait until I’m deep into my research to argue with you on that point.

@realcaseyrollins I mean I gave you some links/citations of well known historians and the papers they have written explaining this fact.

In fact its worse than that.. not only is there no historical evidence. What little non-historical evidence we have can be directly debunked due to known inaccuracies in the text about the time period.

@freemo

I mean I gave you some links/citations of well known historians and the papers they have written explaining this fact.

When? I don’t remember this…can you send it to me again?

@freemo @realcaseyrollins

> There is no histoical record of any country named israel before the 40's.

This is trivially false as a factual matter, but even if it were true what is the upshot?

Waves of immigration (not an "invasion", that feels like xenophobes today calling central American refugees to the US an "invasion") and poor governance by the British predictably caused tension and violence. (IIUC most of the violence was directed against Jewish communities in those days, ~100 years ago?) But why does any of that matter wrt. this question? It's not like that history justifies any violence or injustices today, surely.

Her video is an inane response to a claim someone made(?) that Hamas is responsible for <something>? Sure: this violence had been going on for at least 80 years before Hamas was founded, great point Mia, thanks for your helpful history lesson.

@ech im re reading the source i original got this from (that israel never existed)... it seems i misread.. what it was saying is israel was likely far less expansive as it suggests in the bible as early on as it was... but I think I misread and it is claiming there was an israel, it just formed much later and was much much smaller than biblical accounts.

@ech @freemo @realcaseyrollins