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Hahaha, if this is an hourly worker and he isnt paying overtime this is a completely valid response :) lol
@freemo @georgetakei Nah, it's valid no matter what kind of worker they are. The idea that we should be emotionally loyal to employers is patently absurd.
Salaried employees are expected to make a fix amount no matter how much they are paid. That is the bargain.
@freemo @georgetakei That doesn't mean that they're obligated to have some sort of greater commitment to their job outside of their assigned duties.
Company loyalty is for suckers.
They literally get that back in equal measure. While a salaried empl,oyee doesnt have fixed hours or an hourly rate, and may be expected to work extra hours for free, they also get paid time off. When they take a day or even a whole month off they still get their full pay. It works both ways.
> Hardly, not all moments in one's life are equal and the strain on one's body from accumulated overtime and stress is greater than the relief of a similar amount of time of rest.
If that is true for **you** then dont take a salaried position, and make sure to take a job that doesnt involve overtime. For many of us the opposit eis true. Working overtime for extended periods and then have longer periods of time off to compensate is FAR more relaxing than working every day on a 9-5.
You do you, but dont act like **financially** speaking it doesnt work both ways.
> So an equivalent time exchange... isn't an equivalent exchange in bodily damages. And the money is far from enough to compensate. (Nevermind that for many damaged organs one quite simply cannot buy a replacement for any amount of money.)
Then work hourly and not salary if you feel that way.
> More to the point, there is no (reasonable) expectation of loyalty from an employer (layoffs purely for investment figures are commonplace), so why should any of the employees provide such a thing to the employer?
Who said anything about loyalty. The equivelant of not being able to layoff people would be saying employees cant quit. Loyalty is not expected from eithe rside.
> Who said anything about loyalty. The equivelant of not being able to layoff people would be saying employees cant
quit. Loyalty is not expected from eithe rside.
The vast majority of people would a lot more hard-pressed to quit their job on a whim without ending-up with significant problems than their employer would be in laying them off. The power relationship is *very* strongly skewed here.
As for the earlier statement I made, it is true both for chronic work-acquired injuries and for accumulated organ-damage from stress. The perceived relaxation doesn't indicate rest remotely approaching that sufficient to compensate.
The heart itself cannot cope with all that much sleep deprivation and stress in a short period (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi). Unsustainable high-effort isn't sustainable, that's simply not how human bodies work.
That's not to say 9-5 is exactly healthy either, because it isn't.
True but irrelevant. No one is suggesting a person do 40 hours worth of work in 5 minutes. I'd also be very curious to hear how that would even be possible.
Kinda obsurd we went from "yea a salary worker might occasionally need to do work outside of 9-5" to "oh my god is he working constantly and going to die from lack of sleep and his organs will shut down!"... lets stop being absurd.
@freemo @lispi314 @georgetakei such a romantic view of what it's like to be a salaried employee. Believe it or not, at good companies, even the salaried employees get to have personal lives without having to use their PTO.
Thats a weird way of agreeing with me while trying to sound like you didnt.
No one is claiming they dont "get to have personal lives", only that your job has flexible hours and your personal life gets the same flexibility. And no at a good company there is no such thing as "using PTO".. at good companies when you work late one day as a salaried employer you can come in late the next or even take a day off. And no when you do it wont count against your PTO in fact you probably dont even have a fixed PTO, you take off what you want within reason.
Karoshi is the acute type and most dramatic example, but damage to long-term life expectancy (or desirable life-expectancy, one can be stuck miserable for a while longer) happens at much lower thresholds.
>> You do you, but dont act like financially speaking it doesnt work both ways.
> So? I am not even sure what your disagreeing with or how you think that is relevant to any points I made.
I'm disagreeing with the implication that there's anything approaching equality in the power dynamics involved. What reprocity there is doesn't reach that far.
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Your position seems to rely on what, to me, is a fairly absurd expectation one can find work that is non-straining, pleasant and not under abusive conditions.
> working a little later
In quite a few places, that would be a few hours. That adds up, especially with commute.
> A few days of work-related sleep-deprivation (crunch time?) can very easily lead to death. Doing the same amount of work over the span of a week or two usually won't.
Who said anything about being allowed to work an employee so hard they cant sleep or need to cut their sleep short... no one in this thread... again why are you bringing up things no one is even discussing? To what end?
> I'm disagreeing with the implication that there's anything approaching equality in the power dynamics involved. What reprocity there is doesn't reach that far.
I pointed out the pay worked both ways, you work extra days you dont get extra pay, you dont work a day you dont get less pay. That is a correct statement, full stop. Why your going off on matters of equality int he power dynamic makes no sense, I get your trying to make that point, but that point is not even being discussed in the thread, so what makes you feel that is in any way relevant to what I said?
> Your position seems to rely on what, to me, is a fairly absurd expectation one can find work that is non-straining, pleasant and not under abusive conditions.
Certainly describes most job I ever worked, it also describes about 15 positions I'm hiring for right now, at least to most people. Me and my team are having a blast, I feel bad though that you've never found that, truly.
> In quite a few places, that would be a few hours. That adds up, especially with commute.
As you pointed out, spread out is not the same as all at once. an hour extra here and there does not add up to sleep deprivation and failing organs, especially when its offset with paid vacations.
"I pointed out the pay worked both ways, you work extra days you dont get extra pay, you dont work a day you dont get less pay."
@freemo That's a fair trade. This employer is looking for "commitment" that lasts beyond working hours. That's douchebag code for unpaid, un-otherwise-compensated overtime work.
Right, unpaid uncompensated overtime, with fixed pay when you work less hours in a week is just called salary pay. If you get paid for overtime, or if there is even a concept of overtime then you simply arent a salary worker then by definition.
> The vast majority of people would a lot more hard-pressed to quit their job on a whim without ending-up with significant problems than their employer would be in laying them off. The power relationship is *very* strongly skewed here.
So? I am not even sure what your disagreeing with or how you think that is relevant to any points I made.
> As for the earlier statement I made, it is true both for chronic work-acquired injuries and for accumulated organ-damage from stress. The perceived relaxation doesn't indicate rest remotely approaching that sufficient to compensate.
That makes a lot of assumptions such as the idea that work equates to stress and damage. True for some, not for others, again pick a job that offers you the right balance for you. I myself find work fun, I would and do do it for free, the fact people are willing to pay me a bunch of money to do it is simply a bonus.
> The heart itself cannot cope with all that much sleep deprivation and stress in a short period (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi). Unsustainable high-effort isn't sustainable, that's simply not how human bodies work.
No one is suggesting answering a call or two after hours or occasionally working a little later is the same as sleep deprivation or even a stressor, particularly when it is offset with relaxing vacations you get paid to take.
So an equivalent time exchange... isn't an equivalent exchange in bodily damages. And the money is far from enough to compensate. (Nevermind that for many damaged organs one quite simply cannot buy a replacement for any amount of money.)
More to the point, there is no (reasonable) expectation of loyalty from an employer (layoffs purely for investment figures are commonplace), so why should any of the employees provide such a thing to the employer?