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Remember the days when tolerance and appreciating new perspectives and differences of opinion were considered a virtue?
Peppridge farms remembers.
@freemo NO BUT DON’T YOU SEE TOLERANCE IS A PARADOX SO YOU HAVE TO BE INTOLERANT
Intolerance is the only true tolerance, duh!
2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of two
Tolerance is absolutely a virtue for sufficiently intolerant definitions of tolerant.
I am not suggesting you should be tolerant of everything, No one needs to be tolerant of literal Nazis for example. But when everyone and everything that disagrees with you looks like a Nazi.....
@freemo @volkris I actually disagree with this, depending on what you mean.
When people say “tolerance”, they usually refer to either allowing people to speak, or not barring people from taking office.
Any ideology that bars people from speaking or holding office based on their beliefs alone will bleed into fascism given enough time and power.
Now to be clear, there’s a big difference between tolerance and acceptance. Listening to an idea doesn’t mean you should embrace it. But it’s possible to have enough discernment that you hear someone crazy say something crazy and say “that’s crazy” rather than “why isn’t he in jail yet”.
Tolerance is simply how much you respect, care, and consider the opinions of people who arent like you.
Not sure I see the relevance. Being tolerant doesnt mean you have to be tolerant to the point of absurdity.
@freemo nobody said you have to be tolerant!
But if you're going to be tolerant then, yes, you have to be tolerant to the point of absurdity if it comes to that, by definition.
And that's a great reason not to be absurdly tolerant!
I dont believe in tolerance absolutism.. on a personal level you should be tolerant sure, doesnt mean you need to tolerate everything.
Absolutes dont work in anything, ever, not even once.
@freemo Right, neither do I, and that's why I would say we both (and everyone else) need to be ready to proudly state that we are intolerant of certain things 🙂
That's my point.
Rather than redefining tolerance we should all own the causes where we promote intolerance.
Everything is a spectrum, and almost always existing on either end is the worst place to be. You usually want to be in the happy middle for most things. Tolerance is no different.
For clarity, I'm talking about tolerance in public spaces. If you're running around cursing at randos in an airport, you should probably be removed. In a private space like a church, they should be allowed to gatekeep who gets to speak from the pulpit.
But in public areas or place colloquially viewed as "town square", we should have as much tolerance as reasonably possible.
You are talking about specific exammples of tolerance. and that is fine. But the conversation is just about tolerance in the general sense, not legality or anything like that. Or even tolerance in public space. Those are specific subsets that of course can have their own discussions.
When talkking about public spaces we do have free speech restrictions even in the USA, even on the side walk. They are referred to as time, place, and manner restrictions, then you also have calls to action and other aspects of free speech and tolerance.
@realcaseyrollins tragedy of the Commons there
@freemo
Well I was channeling the nonsensical notion that in tolerance would be tolerance but to be practical:
If you want to be a tolerance absolutist, to borrow Musk's term, then yeah you do have to be tolerant of even absurdity. If you want to claim such absolute tolerance, well, that might be rough, but it will involve tolerating a bunch of wacky stuff.
And that's why absolute tolerance is pretty unworkable in the real world.
In the real world, in most situations, we will be intolerant, and that is a good and healthy and mature thing so long as we draw the lines in appropriate places.
We should celebrate being intolerant of things that make the world, or our lives, or the situation worse.
Don't like Nazis? (whatever that means to you) Fine! You're probably going to want to be intolerant of them, and that's the right thing to do.
But it's the wrong thing to be reasonably intolerant of Nazis but claim that you're being tolerant.
No, be intolerant! And proudly say that you are intolerant of Nazis!
It's just Orwellian to try to rewrite the word for no particularly good reason like that.
@realcaseyrollins