Troglodite thinking:
Opinion - Something you believe to be true based on no or limited evidence.
Fact - A thing you believe to be true that is objectively true.
Enlightened thinking:
Opinion: Anything I believe to be true whether it is true or not and no matter what level of evidence I believe I have.
Fact - A thing which an oracle could, would know is objectively true, but since oracles dont exist we can never exert with certainty that something is or is not fact. It is at best an abstract concept.
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@freemo@qoto.org
@freemo While I agree with this in general, I feel like there's got to be a limit. Is "1+1=2" opinion?
Are we talking purely mathematically, in which case it is only true by definition, and it is still your opinion in how you are understanding that definition. For example in computing (not pure math) we have a saying "2+2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2" which is a play on some of the particulars of computing.
But something being true by definition is only true due to circular logic, and therefore true but not int he sense of being a world fact (a true idea).
By contrast though if you mean the real world manifistation of that.. so "if i have one rock, and pick up another, then I have two rocks" we still wind up in the same problem of true by definition but its just a harder concept to understand. In this case what is a "rock" and how we count rocks are ultimately at play and it still becomes a situation where it is only true by virtue of the fact that we define it as such. Again we would be in the problem that the definition still has room for definition... if i pick up a pile of sand, how many rocks do I have? One could argue each grain of sand counts as a rock.
@freemo Right, but in that example, it's "rock" that becomes ambiguous, not "1", which is an abstract concept we can reliably apply to rocks, apples, bananas, whatever.
I believe that somewhere between the theory and the individual applications, there lies an objective truth that remains factual regardless of our perceptions or ability to observe it.
@LouisIngenthron also to address your otherpoint.. my argument is not that there isnt an objective truth, only that no oracle exists as to what is and is not an objective truth. So even if something is, in reality an objective truth, the fact that it is so is still just your opinion of it.
@freemo Idk about that. If you met someone from 100 years ago, you'd sure seem like an oracle to them. I imagine that's largely true going back through human history. As a species, we seek to define and understand the world around us, and the only way we can truly do that is by finding these universal truths and using them as lenses. I don't think we've found many yet, but we're working hard on finding more.
I don't need confirmation from an omniscient oracle to confirm a fact as true. I just need to be reasonably certain that even totally foreign beings who experience life in a way that's unfathomable to me would still inevitably and independently come to the same conclusion, and I believe that to be true of "1+1=2".
> Idk about that. If you met someone from 100 years ago, you'd sure seem like an oracle to them.
So if someone a 100 years ago thought of a random number and asked this seeming oracle to tell them what number they are thinking of, would they be right 100% of the time? No. Therefore even to a critical thinker 100 years ago it would be trivial to prove you are not an oracle (a person who can determine what is fact without any chance of being wrong or not knowing).
> As a species, we seek to define and understand the world around us, and the only way we can truly do that is by finding these universal truths and using them as lenses. I don't think we've found many yet, but we're working hard on finding more.
Nothing wrong with trying to refine your opinion and your certainty of it based ont he evidence and your own logic. Also nothing wrong with communally sharing that so we all have a collection of opinions that are educated and well thought out.
But no matter how much you explore objective truth you can never state a thing to be absolute truth beyond it being your **opinion** that it is an absolute truth. Sure it may or may not be actually an objective truth, but with no oracle capable of determining that it will always be your opinion. The only thing that changes with evidence (and should) is the confidence you have int hat opinion. It will never stop being an opinion.
@LouisIngenthron Oh and to your other point...
> I don't need confirmation from an omniscient oracle to confirm a fact as true. I just need to be reasonably certain that....
That isnt a coinfirmation. If you are reasonably certain, then you are reasonably certain, that is not a confirmation of truth, it is just a measure of doubt that is reasonable for you to adopt the **opinion** that it is an absolute truth. Someone else who has a higher standard of evidence may set a higher threshold... but since as you point out, in no way confirmed it to be true in an absolute sense (only reasonably certain) it still remains an opinion.
we as humans just assume a certain level of confidence is the same as something being objectively and absolutely true as if its somehow special. Its only a matter of degree in confidence of your opinion, nothing more. It remains an opinion.