@skyblond do you know if there is some sort of asian language short hand? If not chinese any of the languages that use kanji like charachers (single characters to represent words). Im curious about forms of shorthand that migbt be applied to such scripts.

@freemo @skyblond

It is probably as short as can be.

Not likely to compress more information into less pen strokes.

@SpaceLifeForm @freemo

In handwriting, as myself never learnt how to do shorthand, I do have my way to write, mainly keep the pen stay on paper (aka reduce strokes). But sometimes I can't read what I write, so that's the downside.

@skyblond

The way you describe it, it sounds like a cursive form of kanji. Which is cool in its own right.

Im a calligrapher as a hobby and while my girlfriends language doesnt have kanji it is asian. So ive been enjoying learning more about the languages from the region.

@SpaceLifeForm

@freemo

Just a simple demo to show how I normally write. The standard one is shown on the left side, they are 7, 5 and 8 strokes. And the left side is how I write those, the first one is 2 strokes because there is a separate dot there. The rest are 1 stroke.

A fun fact: In school teacher will not allow you to write like this.I was being criticized a lot when I was in school.

And because school don't allow and of course won't teach you how to write like this, almost everyone will develop their own way to write. So when talking about handwriting, unless it's intentionally write for others, it's hard to read other people's handwriting.

And I think I won't say it's cursive. The real cursive is much beautiful than this :)

@SpaceLifeForm

@skyblond

So in school youd have to learn the form on the left which is more "correct" but also less practical i guess?

In school you use pencils and pens? The older style of using brushes isnt very common for everyday writing i take it? With a brush i guess its more like calligraphy.

@SpaceLifeForm

@freemo @SpaceLifeForm

Actually we use pen and pencil daily. Now we only use brushes when doing calligraphy or we need write something big.

The left side is how you should write and print. And you should write like that if you want others to easily read what you write. And in school it's required to be written in the correct order of storkes, which I think some are reasonable, some are not.

This passage is write for japanese but most of the idea works for Chinese too.
https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/kanji-stroke-order/

And now we're using simplified Chinese, which means much less strokes. In Taiwan and HongKong they still use traditional Chinese, which looks nicer, but with a lof ot strokes.

Some traditional Chinese looks like (copied from wikipedia):
漢字簡化運動可追溯至新文化運動中關於文字及語文教言和國家發展的討論。

The same text but in simplified Chinese:
汉字简化运动可追溯至新文化运动中关于文字及语文教言和国家发展的讨论。

@skyblond

Why woukd the order of strokes matter? Doesnt it look the same regardless of what order you execute the strokes in? Thanks this is all very interesting to me.

@SpaceLifeForm

@freemo @SpaceLifeForm

I don't know, I didn't fully get the idea of stroke order. But from top to bottom and left to right does help shape your character.
----

It's a hard question since I never thought about it. Some anwser suggest it's part of the standard. Eventually you will write the same character no matter how you write it, but to resolve any ambiguity, there has to be a standard way to write. And some suggest the correct stroke order can help you learn cursive.

@skyblond@qoto.org @freemo@qoto.org @SpaceLifeForm@infosec.exchange
I can say that in the Japanese language the stroke order also matters. I saw a video of a western deaf guy visiting a Japanese deaf school and the guy tried to copy over some Japanese characters. The end results looks roughly the same, but the pupils (around 8-10 years old) were saying he did it all wrong! Oh, what'd he do wrong? You have to draw the characters in a certain order! From up to down, left to right!

Plus when I was half-assedly learning some Hiragana, they also mentioned sometihng about stroke order, heh. I guess the reason given was that it'd minimize the mistakes of forgetting some small symbol of a character if you learned the right order. I guess in a language where there are notably more than 26 symbols (our Latin alphabet), you're bound to forget a little nudge or line here and there easier, so they probably have to resort to systems like this?

@trinsec

Knowing very little about all this, and maybe @skyblond has some better insight. But I have a theory. I think its a hold-over mostly from the past when they used brush strokes. A brush stroke will very clearly look different depending on the direction you do it. Also it will pull paint along sometimes if it crosses its own stroke.

So I suspect the direction and order of strokes comes from the fact that it was very critical with a crush, and now with pencils it matters much less if at all but its just ingrained
int he language at this point.

@SpaceLifeForm

@freemo@qoto.org @skyblond@qoto.org @SpaceLifeForm@infosec.exchange That's actually a very valid viewpoint, I hadn't considered this. I can see this making a lot of sense. And nowadays the reasoning could have shifted to 'so you won't forget a line here and there'.

@trinsec

The only modern day reason i could think of for a stroke order is "well if you do it in this order each stroke ends close to where the next one begins so you can write the character a bit faster"

@skyblond @SpaceLifeForm