@maccruiskeen ha, I'm not sure you can see where he stands in regard to Europe 🙂

Because I read that exchange in the complete opposite way, talking about the outlines of strategic partnership and how the different groups interact, which has absolutely absolutely nothing to do with hating or not hating Europe.

At worst it's neutrality when setting the terms for partnership. But I think it's more about supporting Europe to follow a path that he thinks would be better for everybody, Europe included, promoting European success as he sees it.

So no, not hatred at all. Support if anything.

Maybe it takes more understanding of the context in which these statements are made, though. It's just like how many misinterpreted Trump's stance on NATO during his first term.

@fj

@volkris @fj This administration has a weird idea of 'support' for Europe if that's how you see it--I mean, 'support' doesn't usually include random punitive tariffs, treating visitors like criminals, and threatening to take their territory by force.

@maccruiskeen to be clear, I'm not saying I agree with it.

Keep in mind that the culture these guys are coming from is shallow and thinks it knows better what everybody should be doing, and when it can it sees a moral Duty to impose that better option on others.

So it's not a weird idea of support. It's actually a very common idea, too common in my opinion, thinking they can help people by telling them what they should be doing.

This is just one example of it. There are so many, but maybe it's something to keep in mind when trying to understand what this administration is doing.

@fj

@volkris @fj you're being way more generous to these sociopathic fucks than they really deserve.

@maccruiskeen Well think of it this way: have you ever had a family member, maybe an older one, who thinks they know what's good for you better than you do? Who has inappropriately tried insert themselves into your business with the best of intention even if they're, well, full of it, and it's not appreciated?

Yes, a couple of these people are sociopathic fucks. I actually agree with that.

But I think a lot of them are just well-meaning but really really stupid, and really really out of touch, and really disconnected from reality.

I think it's a really common experience when somebody with best of intentions tries to tell you what to do with your own life because they think they know better, even though they're completely off base. I think that explains a whole lot of what we're seeing out of the folks in charge right now.

@fj

@irelephant

Yeah, and that's not hatred. In context of support provided by US policy over the course of administrations that even has more to say about the US than about Europe.

This administration has been describing previous US policy as giving too much, so this is a continuation of complaining about the direction of US policy over administrations, and a pivot based on themes of the campaign that got them elected.

Not about Europe, about the US.

@fj

@apas_csc I don't know if you spend a lot of time around folks who buy into the philosophy of hate the sin but love the sinner, but that's a very common way of talking.

This administration seems to come from a culture that leans into that sort of rhetoric.

I emphasize the thing I emphasize a lot: Trump is an absolutely dreadful communicator, and even his supporters occasionally accidentally admit that. This whole administration is shaped by talking in ways that are are ineffectual both in terms of communication and policy making. It's one of the most regressive parts of having this guy in office.

But, It's one of those know thy enemies things where you have to understand what they're saying if you want to counter them and defang the offensive things they do on substance.

Otherwise, you end up attacking the red towel instead of the Matador, and it just plays into their game.

I'm not even sure this leak was an accident because so far what I see is a lot of people reacting to it in ways that benefit them.

@fj