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Pugs with breathing problems due to the results of breeding, and woman with large breasts unable to run pain-free without a bra are the result of effectively the same process.
So why is one immoral and not the other? Why do people vocally discourage people from breeding pugs or other dogs with breeding issues but you'd never hear anyone claim women with large breasts shouldn't have children?
I'm not suggesting anything here myself either way. I'm simply posing the question and would like to hear the reasoning each of you might apply to rationalizing this discongruity.
@freemo breeding incolves 2 sets of genetics. Tour argument might be better to say that large breasted women should be discouraged from procreation with men with big breasts, or more correctly men from families where the women are larger breasted.
Of course, some large breasted women, are not genetically so but done so by surgery, no?
@Absinthe If a particular gene is harmful then you are better off eliminating it entierly (make sure you dont have even one set) so as to ensure the harmful expression of the gene doesnt crop up later.
@freemo true enough, but if large breasts were harmful, wouldn't such fall out of attractiveness? If men didn't find them attractive they wouldn't breed with them in the same way they don't breed with nonsymetric faced and those wirh other features that perhaps signal genetic or social weakness?
Are we better at marketing and changing the internal instincts? Perhaps in the way we can tap into the instinctual desire of sweet energy rich and nutrient dense fruit with less nutrient dense candies and processed products etc?
Certainly we are not actively breeding persons? Not match making those from the breast rich families with those of other breast rich families to create superbreasted offspring?
@Absinthe Just because something is harmful doesnt garuntee it would be unattractive, no.
But you are right that the breeding isnt forced, it happens naturally, but it can still be harmful despite this.
@freemo I have thought about this. I think the attractiveness of breasts probably come as indication of nubileness or fertility. Perhaps if a little is good a lot can be better, or perhaps an increase in size shows additional health or nutrient based strength. So someone with developed breasts could be fertile and with additional size perhaps more likely to successfully bring a child to term. This works in nature, but in our current reality it is easy to provide an abundance to calories.
We have evolved to a point where we have overcome our instinctual pointers. The benefits of our instincts is broken. Perhaps those instincts need to be curbed (evolved to newer ones). How do we evolved new instincts?
@Absinthe Yet humans are the only speciesa that have engorged breasts prior to bearing a baby, not even chimps have that.
@freemo i have seen it argued that the shape mimics the buttocks, though most humans I've met don't present with inflamed red buttocks to signal estrus either. Too bad though, might have made high school dating less confusing.
@Absinthe Butts arent equivelant because they serve a functional need. Unlike breasts which do not have a function need prior to child birth.
@freemo one might argue that large breasts to the result of back problem may have more to do with artificially supporting them, as gravity would change their shape more quickly over time otherwise. Look at some of the other non-braziered cultures' images 'cultural nudity'. Other aspect of the back problems do come from social shame of the early bloomer modifying posture in youth to minimize the appearance.
@Absinthe That would be a fair point, except women who have back problems have those problems with or without a bra. In fact a bra would raise the center of gravity and add more strain on the lower back
Ther eis a valid counter-point to the rape explanation, but it only goes so far.
We could argue that it plays a similar role to enlarging butts, that is, it is a secondary sex characteristic that signals to males a woman is ready for sex and the ability to bear children.
While this is likely true, and partly a pressure for breast growth it doesnt explain why it was able to evolve to the point of causing physical harm, which brings us back to the original problem (And thus why rape is still likely an element as far as I can see)
@freemo I disagree with you on the bra thing. I also don't feel the breast size is necessarily all genetic, but more likely due to what we have done to our food supply and eating practices. I would say that in most cases I have seen women with large breasts that are carrying fat other places as well. Or they are surgically augmented.
@freemo the argument is not that lifting the breasts with a bra helps cog but that the weight of the hanging breast would displace the fat cells or cause elongation of the surrounding tissue thus lowering the cog
@Absinthe I could see that argument, but when ive read research on bra usage in the past (granted this was years ago) they did not find that using a bra preventing sagging in any way. Sagging is apparently a natural process that comes wiht age and occurs independent of bra usage.
@freemo sagging would be obviated by looking at cultures that don't wear them. Look at the Peruvian and other 'cultural nudity' images. The nubile girls will have protruding breasts then as they age they lay flatter and hang. Bras are intended to make post nubile women look like nubile pubescent girls. We do and have done all sorts of unnatural things to female bodies, from foot binding, to corsetting, to fgm .. probably because there is no signaling of estrus and women can reduce congress even when they are in estrus. That itself probably due to the long gestation and increased size of the human brain leading to the likelihood of death during pregnancy.
@Absinthe Anexdotal evidence, I know plenty of old women in societies who wear bras that sag just as much.
I think you may have a misconception because in our societies breast implants are far more command (And rarely admitted to) as compared to tribal societies. Then there is also the question of genetic tendency between the two groups.
I think if you want to make that case and convince me youll have to show a peer reviewed study with some controls. While I dont remember where i got the info from I do know i originally read it in a peer reviewed study which im much more likely to believe than anecdotal evidence like you suggest.
@freemo this was fun. I am not sure we have any further to go on it. Civilization has taken us so far out of what natural progressions would have done it is hard to tell some things. Probably why the popularity of the distopian realities has the popularity that it does.
Anyway, I would like to get your opinion on a book if I can find an esbn. That would be indirectly related
@Absinthe sure, was a fun exploration of ideas
@freemo Leonard Shlain
Sex, Time, and Power: How Women's Sexuality Shaped Human Evolution
@Absinthe Yes, but again the color change has no negative impact, therefore it is not unusual nor comparable to women with large breasts to the point of back problems.