Please, share and debate
(I tried writing the poll neutral, even though I think half of the list is delusional)
Do you believe there is a possibility of left and right to calm down and start a reasonabke debate, considering, that:
The left:
Castrates kids, approves of grooming, protests for killing babies etc
The right:
Tried an insurrection, want to kill trans people, hate minorities, want rich to be richer etc
@LukeAlmighty modern Americans are too stupid to make up but too pussy to make war, it will probably be a couple of decades of the shit you have now until anything changes. By the way, calling fetuses with no developed nervous systems "babies" is about as retarded as calling acorns "oak trees" lol
@Amikke
Although I do agree with your first half, the second is just plane whataboutism.
And it changes nothing about the fact, that it is exactly what does a right wing person see. A baby, that was murdered, because his mother couldn't be arsed to use rubber.
If you can look up pictures of aborted babies without your stomac turning inside out, you might be a psychopath. And people who see these pictures will build up rage with every single mention of a woman bragging about her right to murder even more.
(btw, I don't have a strong opinion on abortions in particular, but is is the clearest example of behavior, that left is willing to ignore just how demonic they sound when they talk about it.)
@LukeAlmighty yeah, that's what a right-wing person sees because they refuse to consider the matter further than "monkey brain see little monkey, monkey brain mad little monkey dead". It's perfectly understandable, it's our basic instinct after all, but with our understanding of nervous system and fetus development it's not a reasonable stance for enforcing the "protection" of such not-yet-developed fetuses and sacrificing the wellbeing of perfectly good adult humans in the process. It's not really a matter of discussion, it's a matter of education and fucking off other people's reproductive decisions.
Exemptions can be made for cases of rape and so on.
@Jens_Rasmussen @Amikke
It's so funny you have to mention the exceptions, since most lefties don't get the concept of a general rule.
@Jens_Rasmussen @Amikke
The best argument for abortion rights is:
Would you seriously want the kid to live with such a person?
But this argument is rarely being used for some reason.
@Jens_Rasmussen @Amikke
I said for abortion....
@Jens_Rasmussen @Amikke
as I wrote, I don't have any strong feelings on this particular topic, because there are definitely society wide benefits, that can be pointed towards.
But the way, it is defended by simply repeating: Why do you want to take away my holy right to murder babies? It's my vag, I can murder anything in it.
It's demonic...
@Jens_Rasmussen @LukeAlmighty oh, I whole-heartedly disagree. I've gotten to know many "unwanted children", some of which went through an orphanage and some simply had to grow up with parents that don't love them and blame them for ruining their lives simply by being accidentally conceived. Most were mad they had to be born to such situation, some committed or at least attempted suicide before even reaching adult age. Nearly all support the right to (early) abortion, reasoning it can prevent such situations by literally aborting the fetus before it can start to feel or think.
Abortion is most definitely morally preferable over forcing a child to be born unwanted. And that's only considering the child's perspective, if we add the parents and the effects of such situations on the society around them, the case for abortion becomes crystal clear.
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
So,
Why did you begin this debate by arguing for the "mother's right to be murderer"?
Or even by talking about "educating people, that the thing is not human"?
@LukeAlmighty @Jens_Rasmussen yeah, I chose the ending poorly, my bad, "my body my choice" is a supremely shitty argument without first establishing that it's not actual murder we're talking about.
The main conflict point between pro-choice and """pro-life""" is not some feminist bullshit, it's the core misunderstanding where one side treats early fetuses as full-blown humans (or "babies" as you phrased), while the other treats them as the mindless human seeds that can develop into babies if given the chance.
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
Yes, that is the textbook explanation.
But that is also exactly, why I wrote the original question.
More precisely: How do you live in a society with people who love killing babies? Is it even possible for such a society not to turn into a bloody warzone?
@LukeAlmighty @Jens_Rasmussen nobody pro-choice "loves killing babies", I'm not sure from what alternative reality you got that assumption from, but it's certainly not the one I live in.
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
Yeah, these people absolutely do hate it enough to use a rubber.
@LukeAlmighty @Jens_Rasmussen a rubber has what, 97% success rate? Do you realise what that means on the scale of an entire society? Or do you just pretend that it's an infallible solution?
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
I am saying, that it's better then: "I took the pill, trust me dude"
Followed by:
"He run away, cause I tried to baby trap him. Well, time to kill this thing I guess"
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
Also, an effectively of a rubber is NOT what the entire discussion is about, since we're getting into the "What about failure/rape" category.
@LukeAlmighty @Jens_Rasmussen failure of an actual contraceptive is the primary reason for the right to abortion (besides the rape / heavy disorder ones), nobody just has unprotected sex and uses abortion instead of a contraceptive. Shit's expensive, awkward and hormonally devastating, it's treated as a last resort.
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
Btw,I said before, that abortion is not of great importance to me. It is a tragic procedure, that is being marketed incorrectly, but it has many POTENTIAL benefits. I even believe, there would be no debate, if abortion supporters didn't try to banalize the issue by calling the murdered kid a "clump of cells", but the disrespect of dead person escalates the tension exponentially.
But what do you think of sterilizing young people based on a short phase of confusion?
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
And to sum it up, we do agree that abortions should be RARE, LEGAL and SAFE?
Also, do we agree, that hoes, who fail to baby jail chad are idiots, who should be shamed all the way to africa?
Because if we do agree on all of that, then it seems, that it realy is a question of respecting life itself.
Funny that right?
@LukeAlmighty @Jens_Rasmussen yup, although I don't think the kind of respect for life I'm thinking about is the same you, or especially radical pro-lifers, are thinking about. It's akin to the difference between a human organism and a person, where you can consider a fetus the former but not yet the latter. This is also why I don't like calling abortion "killing babies", since "baby" or "kid" is a more empathetic term for a feeling human, and it creates the image of murdering such creatures, while biologically and ethically an early fetus is more like a budding seed or a fertilised egg, hence the comparisons.
@Jens_Rasmussen @LukeAlmighty you don't fix the mistakes humans make by saying they're bad. That's real life for ya. People always had irresponsible conceptions, even when they believed they will go to literal hell for eternity for premarital sex, what makes you think you shunning them is going to accomplish?
The popular "just don't have sex" argument is a non-solution and everyone that's been a teen and can add 2 and 2 together can tell you that.
It will certainly lessen the amount of unwanted children, if abortion is not a thing and having unwanted children is frowned upon. It's not a 100% fix, but I don't think there is such a thing. More importantly; the lack of a 100% fix doesn't mean "welp, just kill 'em then".
>The popular “just don’t have sex” argument is a non-solution
It seems like a much better solution than "just kill the children", if you ask me.
@Jens_Rasmussen @LukeAlmighty you cannot kill something that has never lived. From the perspective of the fetus, it doesn't exist yet. The point of abortion is to abort it before it has the chance to start.
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
This is not a point, that will ever hold any weight no matter how many times repeated
@Jens_Rasmussen @Amikke
Virus is not considered life, because it does not contain a single cell, and requires other cells to reproduce.
Human egg is a complete cell, and once it is supplied with a Sperm cell, it is capable of dividing on its own.
You went from a ridiculous sell with "It's not a human baby" to a whole new level with "its not alive."
@Jens_Rasmussen @LukeAlmighty an acorn has the capacity to turn into an oak tree, but it's not there yet. A fertilised but not yet developed egg has the capacity to turn into a chicken, but it's not there yet. You don't "kill a chicken" by cooking such an egg, you don't "chop down an oak tree" by cleaning up acorns, and you don't "kill a person" by aborting an early fetus.
If you're """pro-life""", this is the exact point you refuse to understand, opting instead for monkey brain reasoning.
I not only eat products made from seeds and grains, I even eat meat from slaughtered animals.
@Jens_Rasmussen @LukeAlmighty humans are animals. We may consider ourselves "on a different level", and I don't disagree - having a choice to save the life of a human baby or a kitten, I'll choose the human. It comes from both the natural evolutionary instinct to prefer the organisms more related to ourselves and the understanding that with our higher mental capacity comes increased, let's say, ethical weight, which also causes us to prefer a dog over an ant, or a crow over a carp.
However, I find other-species examples helpful, because it's easier for people to operate on concepts they know from real life over bioethics theory.
It doesn't change the fact that I still consider a human growing the womb to be alive enough that destroying it would be the same as killing it.
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
There is no refusal to understand, we just see it as the laziest whataboutism there is.
That human is already growing since the second a sperm touches the egg.
We get it, that you love killing the baby, but renaming it to fetus does not change the underlying reality.
We do not live inside Cambridge Dictionary.
There's a bit more to what happens in the womb than that, but suffice to say that when an abortion is taking place then all the other necessary steps have also happened.
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
If you call an ant "elephant", he does not gain thousands of times in weight. So why should calling a baby "fetus" make it moral to kill it?
@LukeAlmighty @Jens_Rasmussen literally nobody except for a statistical edge of psychopaths loves killing babies. How do you manage to grasp the concept of whataboutism while at the same time insisting that I or any other pro-choice person "loves killing babies", which is just a plain fabrication?
@Amikke @Jens_Rasmussen
Oh, ok...
And if I say, they love killing fetuses, will that be ok?
@LukeAlmighty @Jens_Rasmussen hah, but no. There's no "love killing x" aspect to the discussion on abortion, whatever you choose to call "x". If someone insists otherwise, they probably need to talk to an actual human living in this reality instead of whatever they usually consult lol
@Amikke
> It’s not really a matter of discussion, it’s a matter of education and fucking off other people’s reproductive decisions.
That's just lazy. But it does highlight my point perfectly.