<Thread>

@freemo @stux @Gargron

This is Babri Masjid.

A mostly dilapidated Mosque that has been the subject of a 150 year old legal dispute, and 400 year old controversy

What is the controversy?

The mosque was built in 1600 by a mughal ruler Aurangazeb (muslim invader) after demolishing what some believe to be the most Holy Site for the Hindus - The birth place of Lord Ram.

Even after the construction of the mosque Hindus would throng to the structure to offer prayers to their lord, and had been doing so from 1600 - 1947

Mention of this can be found in the records of the British Empire, who themselves recorded the site as Ram Janmabhoomi(Ram Birthplace) + Babri Masjid.

After Independence quite a few Muslim Scholars requested the Muslim Board to give the Babri Site to Hindus saying -

“Babri Masjid is not a frequented site or a significant mosque, it doesn’t hold much importance to us Muslims but for the Hindus it is a very Holy Place. Let it be a peace offering and an end to religion of Politics”

But the the then goverment and the muslim board refused to take this proposal forward as doing so would mean that they could no longer ask for votes in the name of Religion.

The politics of religion went on unabated.

Leading to this-

In 1992 a gathering of around 100,000 Hindus tore down the dilapidated mosque demanding that Ram Temple underneath it be restored.

The government shot and killed 100s of Hindus that had gathered to bring the mosque down.

Then Congress government didn’t budge when asked to resolve the matter and said there was no proof that any structure existed underneath the mosque.

It said this without conducting any Archaeological Investigation.

<Continued>

Follow

@freemo @stux @Gargron

After a lot of debates and an ongoing court case in Allahbad.

The government ordered the Archaeological Survey of India to dig up the site under the demolished mosque.

But all digging was supposed to be done in the presence of Muslim Board and Hindu Parties. This ensures no foulplay.

Now here is where the funny thing happens.

Archeologst KK Muhammad and BB Lal discover Pillars, Carving, pottery, Devangari Script Inscriptions, Human Figurines. They discover that the entire Babri Masjid was built on top of pillars of a distinctly Non-Islamic Strucuture.

They find a civilization/township that had existed there since atleast 600 BC.

But strangely these archaeologists get transfered to other projects around the country after the discovery and the site gets handed to their interns who have never even held a pick axe let alone excavate a site.

These junior archaeologists (under gov pressure) give statements about how some artifacts were place there “after” the site had been dug up.

This was later proved to be untrue as in 2019 almost all of them said that they were either not trained in arxhaelogy or had written their reports after reading what was written in Newspapers.

Imagine writing about the most controversial issue after reading a bunch of newspapers and then submitting this to the government saying that there is nothing underneath the mosque.

BB lal and KK Muhammed the orignal archaeologists were very smart to not handover their field notebooks to them. If they had the interns would have manipulated the findings in a much more sever way. They knew the waves this discovery would create and risked their careers so that the truth could survive.

You have to understand this.

The Indian Gov back then Never wanted the matter resolved as the Ayodya/Babri Issue polarised Hindus against Muslims and turned into a major facilitator for Vote Bank Politics.

Why would you sell the hen that laid golden eggs?

@freemo @stux @Gargron

The fact of the matter is that.

There existed an ancient structure under the mosque and the Hindus wanted it for worship.

Originaly they didnt even want to demolish the mosque they were tolerant of it. All they wanted were rights to pray at that site.

But the liberal government in India turned it into such a big issue by refusing to broker peace as that would mean anhilation of vote bank politics. And loss of votes in future elections as now people wouln’t care for religion and instead ask for development activities.

The current BJP Governemnet has put an end to the Ayodhya/Babri issue.

The issue isn’t about a place of worship.

It is about putting an end to asking for votes in the name of religion and instead let votes be asked for in the name of development and poverty alleviation.

Find below more photos of the Archaeological finds from beneath the mosque. They are clearly of non islamic nature.

There was a reason the supreme court handed the land to the Hindus.

It also gave 5 acres to muslims to build a grander much better mosque than the dilapited Babri.

After this Judgement no politician in India can ask for votes in the name of religion. Narendra Modi is the only person who could have facilitated this.

@Full_marx @freemo @stux @Gargron Ok here we go again. :morty:
That's an amazing theory you have there :)
While it was intriguing to read, here is where it needs some fact checking.
1, Mosque was built around 1528 by the orders Mughal Emperor Babur says one theory. Aurangzeb theory is backed by only one- Joseph Tiefenthaler but several scholars such as Francis Buchanan, Anton Fuhrer made different claims. The inscriptions inside the structure allegedly carries varying information deciphered by several scholars.Patrick Carnegie (British Archaeologist) claims that the Kasauti pillars found inside strongly resemble Buddhist viharas. But we can't overrule anything as there is no conclusive report.
2, "There was a reason the supreme court handed the land to the Hindus" - you said.
ASI findings didn't play a major role in the verdict. When ASI stated that there is obviously a layout beneath the mosque of 'non-islamic' origin. SC further stated that ASI didn't make any comment on whether the underlying structure is exclusively an Hindu Temple.
You are claiming that the Congress government manipulated ASI findings. If true, its an huge offence. Why didn't the BJP who is in control of both State and central government for the last few years order a new commission to come up with a completely new set of ASI report.

The 'theories' keeps piling up. Should we consider and quote the ones that are supporting our claims? or talk about all possibilities?
Ayodhya verdict was 'not' based on the ASI findings. (Since you provided much importance on ASI in your post)

3, I don't want this to be a political debate by involving any party. I don't endorse any party. But a mere google search (if you don't have access to news articles spanning decades) of who committed atrocities in the name of Babri Masjid and influenced the vote banks; you wouldn't have limited you critique to liberal side alone.

4, "In 1992 a gathering of around 100,000 Hindus tore down the dilapidated mosque demanding that Ram Temple underneath it be restored"
They weren't Hindus.(Last I checked Hindu population is almost 80% in India i.e. approx 966 million. So only 0.010351% of them were Hindus and VHP members). Hindutuva is not Hinduism.
They were Hindu activists predominantly from Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP) origin.
The government shot and killed 100s? No, check the official State government statement.
The Ayodhya verdict it self states that Desecration of Mosque structure was wrong.

5, To conclude, Indian constitution doesn't have jurisdiction over Aurangzeb or Babri. We are not a Hindu nation. We are a democratic entity that was formed less than 100 years ago. We respect our constitution more than scriptures.
A group of 100,000 terrorists destroyed a place of worship (They didn't trust in Indian constitution / Judicial proceeding. What gave them the right to take matters in their own hand? If they can do it yesterday, any organization with lakhs of members can terrorize a place ? what precedence does it set? )

"After this Judgement no politician in India can ask for votes in the name of religion. Narendra Modi is the only person who could have facilitated this."
- From 1996 to 2019, the only constant thing in BJP's manifesto is 'Ram Mandir'. This is an excerpt from 2019 BJP's manifesto - 'We reiterate our stand on Ram Mandir. We will explore all possibilities within the framework of the Constitution and all necessary efforts to facilitate the expeditious construction of the Ram Temple in Ayodhya.'
I am glad (like you) that Narendra Modi, Left leaning politicians, etc won't be using Ram Mandir for their benefit.

I understand that the emotions are running high when it comes to Ayodhya. I believe it was a place of significance for Hindu community. I'm happy for crores of Indians who will get to pray there for years to come. But the act of demolition will always hurt.
Violence begets Violence.

@Karthikdeva @freemo @stux @Gargron

The name is Babri, derived from Babur. There is no point arguing about who built it as thats beyond the scope of this post. It was muslim Invaders who built it over an existing structure of strongly non-islamic architecture.

Both KK Muhammad and BB Lal have given statement that they were silenced for telling the truth. Why are we not prosecuting them. What’s the point now when the judgement is out?

Yes what the mob did was wrong, I never said it was right.

Yes. Narendra Modi has succesfully put an end to this issue. No politicall party in the future will ever be able to use this barbri-ram mandir issue to gain votes.

Politicians will now be forced to talk about development issue and poverty alleviation.

Only problem remains is caste politics.

But I feel Hindutva (the real one not the liberal media version that you’re thinking) has some creative solutions to fix the caste issue.

@Full_marx @freemo @stux @Gargron
"Politicians will now be forced to talk about development issue and poverty alleviation."- Hopefully ! 🤞
I strongly believe education is the way to move forward. It curbs all myths and superstitions. Religion won' t be a deciding factor in politics but science and facts.
I always opposed Hindutva, Creative solutions sounds nice ! but the aftermath could be futile don't you think?
I would love to hear what is Hindutva from your perspective?

@Karthikdeva @freemo @stux @Gargron

I’m actually reading up on Savarkar quite a lot nowadays.

His idea of Hindutva was to abolish Brahmin Kshatriya Baniya in order to bring the dalit to their level.

This sent shocks down the spines of Brahmins.

I feel the Brahmins sabotaged his image because you know Ideas are bullet proof.

But 2020 is the decade of savarkar.

Hopefully we have solved the religion issue(idk).

But caste issue requires really creative, but more importantly BOLD and UNPOPULAR decisions.

Modi is in a good position to make these moves. Let’s hope they play their cards well.

@Full_marx @freemo @stux @Gargron
Although , (I can't stress this enough) I cannot accept Savarkar ideologue personally,but I am keen on knowing more.
My few questions are,
1, Does minorities have a role in (Muslims, Christians, Dalits and Atheist, etc.)
2, Can I be a person and will Hindutva accept me?
3, Freedom of speech and expression will be ridiculed? Or debated with respect?
4, What role does Science play in Hindutva? India is lagging way behind in terms of science and technology (Relatively). Will Hindutva encourage Scientific facts or excerpts from scriptures? i.e. Facts over traditions.
(I can see a lot of far right Indian politicians making statements like aeroplanes were used by Hindu gods, Cow milk is gold, Cow dung protects us from radiation, Modi himself said that cosmetic surgery was practiced in India thousands of years ago, Dr KJ Krishnan (at Indian Science Congress) reportedly said Newton failed to "understand gravitational repulsive forces" and Einstein's theories were "misleading", he insisted on renaming it as 'Narendra Modi' waves , An educational minister from Rajasthan said that Cows exhale oxygen' etc etc. Will pseudoscience play a role in Hindutva ?

@Karthikdeva @freemo @stux @Gargron

Hindutva was created in 1950s. It's an archaic philosophy. We can only extract the good parts and modify it to fit 2020. More on it at the end.

Considering what you said about the fictional speeches made by the Prime Minister understand this.

In a country full of superstition and cow-worship telling people that we need to build 'Aerodomes' and Combustion Laboratories and 'Particle Accelerators' is not going to spread scientific curiosity.

You have to think creatively.

The left has kept people poor and misguided and now the people speak absurd tongues.

If you want to reach them you yourself have to speak an absurd tongue.

Especially in 2014 when major news channels were heavily left leaning, nobody was ready to give MODI coverage.

The news outlets knew if Modi came to power he would screw everyone for tax evasion.

You know what is happening with Raghav Bhai and NDTV right? Both of them have massive cases against them.

And now they are screaming that Journalism is being held hostage.

I will leave you with a few words from Savarkar. Should give the left an Idea of what they are missing out on.

It was an excerpt available in Swarajya Mag

@Full_marx @freemo @stux @Gargron
Interesting.
"In a country full of superstition and cow-worship telling people that we need to build 'Aerodomes' and Combustion Laboratories and 'Particle Accelerators' is not going to spread scientific curiosity." This sentence hurts me physically. We abuse almost all the applications from like Internet, phones. modern medicine, Media platform , automobiles and so on. But our country is filled with superstitions based on whatever reason.
"Pick up science books instead' should be the go to Savarkar quote for Hindutva supporting Indians !

@Full_marx @freemo @stux @Gargron It's a different matter that the only votebank in India is the sanghi votebank. Hatred sells like no other.

@kaarT00S @freemo @stux @Gargron

Ofcourse

The following are only figments of our imagination,

Muslim Vote Bank
Dalit VB
Dravida(South India) VB
South Indian Christian VB
Konkan Christian VB
Sikh VB
North East Tribes VB
.......so many more

Oxygen is imaginary as well !!

And I would like to correct you .. Sugar sells like no other !!

@Full_marx @freemo @stux @Gargron
Muslims have been voting for Congress and all kinds of regional parties. Dalits can't even be imagined as a single vote bloc. Dravids are divided between DMK and AIADMK. Only sanghi vote bank is solidly behind BJP even if they are screwed.

So yes, it is indeed a figment of imagination. But one that had been assiduously set up by the sangh.

@kaarT00S @freemo @stux @Gargron

"So yes, it is indeed a figment of imagination."

-This is my cue to stop pursuing this.

It seems India is fixed now!! Vote Banks are fictional, Amazing!!

@Full_marx @freemo @stux @Gargron This is your cue to smell coffee and understand that sanghi poopganda on social media won't go uncontested.

@kaarT00S

I havnt been following this thread. Am I tagged for moderator purposes or for general discussion?

@Full_marx @stux @Gargron

@freemo
I tagged you when I was new to QOTO. Long back!!

So sorry. I'll make sure I reply with your name out.

No no, just talking about coffee and caste the usual, no moderation needed here.

But feel free to comment your views here though.

@Full_marx You are welcome to tag me whenever you like. Just checking if you needed my help is all.

@kaarT00S @freemo @stux @Gargron

No actually I'm on Mastodon to avoid wasting my time. Especially when I have to tell people that Vote Banks are a real problem in India:: I'd rather not even try.

I'm not going to bring my twitter baggage along, and also not gonna try and have the last word, you can have it.

You win !! Congratulations !!

For your information, I brew Sussegado Coffee off a Percolator, incase you wanted to know.

It smells Lit AF.

@Amrit @freemo @stux @Gargron

Thankyou.

Join quote.org instance if you wan't a larger charachter limit.

@Full_marx @freemo @stux @Gargron I'll ask my lil Ninja friend @inditoot whether its good to join quote.org ?

@Amrit

He meant to say qoto.org, that was a typo. It is my instance and the one he is on. Let me know if I can answer any questions about it.

@inditoot is a good guy, we have a good relationship with his server.

@Full_marx @stux @Gargron @inditoot

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Qoto Mastodon

QOTO: Question Others to Teach Ourselves. A STEM-oriented instance.

No hate, No censorship. Be kind, be respectful

We federate with all servers: we don't block any servers.