@aldente @godpod should the state have access to billions of dollars to fund wars? Or to subsidize oil industries? To create a prison industrial complex compliant with the 13th amendment?? To fund police that keep us in our place?

Is the state any better than billionaires who depend on public opinion to keep their billions? I say it is FAR worse. And I LOVE roads.

@JonKramer @godpod Is the amount of power the thing that really bothers you, or is it the lack of transparency and accountability? Do you really believe a billionaire depends on the public opinion more than a government? And that billionaire will spend $500B on interstate highways and let you use them for free?

@aldente @godpod the power is the most worrisome, although I can theorize about a benevolent dictatorship, I have yet to see an example of one in all of history. The lack of transparency and accountability is definitely a major concern of mine. Although I can imagine, and have seen examples of state secrets that should remain secret.

@JonKramer @godpod I am slightly confused and curious about the ideology behind your statements.

1. Reduced power of the state points towards anarchist or libertarian ideas.
2. Trust in billionaires sounds like AnCap.
3. Distrust in "benevolent dictatorship" contradicts Ancapistan.

Which is it? How would you label these ideas?

@aldente @godpod , I don't label them. I think most labels are constricting, and often used to cast shade. I further feel that all forms of government and social interaction have their time and place, and are the most effective or fair in those times and places. Although that requires the idea that the only goal is species survival over all else.

@aldente @godpod furthermore, I don't trust billionaires any more than I trust any random person. I just don't trust them LESS. I do not trust a government with billions of dollars more than an individual. I feel it is blatantly obvious why I don't. It is not blatantly obvious why others don't see this. But, as some have pointed out, it could be an American thing. We seem to love spending billions bombing brown people around the world. I do trust Soros, for example, far more with billions.

@aldente @godpod , I just remembered, in the past I would use a label for myself: "Libertarian-communist". I hope that helps. :)

@JonKramer @aldente @godpod how is "the state having access to billions of dollars to conduct wars"
different from
"we're all individuals with no state here to tax us, but we're pooling our billions of dollars voluntarily without government coercion to hire a bunch of thugs to topple a third world government so we can steal their resources but I stress again that this is not government coercion or confiscation of our cash"?

@gzuckier @aldente @godpod you asking me?

It isn't. That was the point of my original question.

@JonKramer @aldente @godpod "billionaires depend on public opinion to keep their billions"?
First I've heard of it.
You mean because I don't bother to try to rob Elon?

@gzuckier @aldente @godpod No. I mean because those billions don't spontaneously generate, and require income to maintain. If you want to see what happens to 44 billion bucks when the public turns against a billionaire, go check out Twitter.

@JonKramer @gzuckier @aldente @godpod most billionaires don’t make their money selling goods we use. Most of them make their money off investments, much of which do nothing to support the economy. In fact, most of them make *more* money when the economy tanks. And refusing to tax them allows them to maintain this while we suffer. Most jobs are created by middle-class entrepreneurs, but our economy has gotten to the point where people can’t afford entrepreneurship.

@cadenza @JonKramer @gzuckier @aldente @godpod as one of the "middle class entrepreneurs" I have yet to be able to expand my business. It seems every time I think I am secure enough to hire additional people (since late 2019), something else happens to destabilize the situation. And I don't want to expand by taking on debt I can't forecast paying back.

@cadenza @gzuckier @aldente @godpod what do you think investments are or do?

@JonKramer @gzuckier @aldente @godpod investments used to support job activities but no longer now that we are in the era of casino capitalism. Hedge funds make their money off derivatives and other financial instruments that do nothing to actually support the market, but take a lot of money out of the economy when it tanks. (Just like crypto!) Most of the money billionaires make is put in offshore accounts never to be seen by the economy again.

@JonKramer @gzuckier @aldente @godpod most investments now bear little resemblance to reality and certainly do not provide a way for cash-strapped corporations to raise funds. It was, at one time, but no longer.

@aldente @JonKramer @godpod
Yes of course, and that is normal in most part of Europe.

@xs4me2 @aldente @godpod and is there currently a war in Europe?

@JonKramer @aldente @godpod
No, it’s just a special military operation.

@xs4me2 @aldente @godpod , I can't tell if you are trying to be funny, or if you actually believe that, or if you think that makes it better.

@JonKramer @aldente @godpod
Your remark on management of public space is as relevant as your remark on the war started by Russia.

@xs4me2 @aldente @godpod now you think it's a war? One started by a government?

@JonKramer @aldente @godpod
I guess arguing with you will not make sense…

@xs4me2 @aldente @godpod I desire we become better strangers.

@JonKramer @aldente @godpod
God only knows (…)

@joat @godpod they aren't. States generate their funds by force. Billionaires generate their funds by selling products someone wants to buy. I would agree that billionaires that sell to states shouldn't exist... outlaw selling weapons and building prisons, for example... but a someone who gets rich selling things people want? I LOVE those guys. And to get rid of them, just stop buying from them.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod no, people don't always have a choice-- monopolism happens a lot these days, especially in industries where billionaires are created. Nobody "earns" a billion dollars.

Also, taxes are the cost of having a society. Libertarians are often asked whether they use government services such as roads and fire departments and many other things, but they never seem to have a good answer.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod monopolies are enforced by the state. I agree, that is a problem. Who do you suggest we arrest first?

@JonKramer @joat @godpod anti-monopolism hasn't been enforced in the US since the 1970s. Go after Big Tech, mostly run by monopolistic billionaires.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod are you trying to say that monopolies are NOT created by the state??

@JonKramer @joat @godpod yes, monopolies are not created by the state. They are created by monopolistic behavior on the part of psychopathic CEOs. The state is (or is supposed to be) protection against the abuse of concentrated power by such people.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod I honestly don't know how to address your post. Monopolies tend to have two forms, natural or legal. Natural Monopolies really can not be broken up. And the other ones are legal ones created by the state.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod here is the "good answer": yes, libertarians use roads and other services they pay for, without guilt. Because, they PAID for those services. This should also be blatantly obvious.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod yes, roads etc. are paid for BY TAXES. So stop complaining about the existence of taxes while you benefit from all those things.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod so don't complain about billionaires if you shop in thier businesses???

@JonKramer @joat @godpod I actually try not to, but that's a different matter.

Taxes enable roads etc., but billionaires don't enable anything that wouldn't exist just fine (and usually better) without them.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod I defy you to build a supermarket chain, or a publishing house, or any other business with a massive investment. Often billions of dollars in investment, depending on how high tech the business is.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod putting aside the question of whether there's any benefit to having supermarket chains etc. vs. small businesses:

Yes, investment. So who can invest? Only those with a huge amount of disposable wealth. So how did they get that disposable wealth? You're making a circular argument.

It just shows, once again, how there are only opportunities to get rich if you are ALREADY rich. Note that almost all billionaires came from wealthy families.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod I can invest. I can toss $20 to businesses that I approve of. I can buy public shares in businesses. I can have my employer match funds in a 401K retirement fund.

You can do this too.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod but now you've shifted your argument. You were saying billionaires are needed to invest in large businesses.

As far as getting wealthy from stocks, sure, many people (not most) can buy stocks and make thousands of dollars if their gambles pay off. Meanwhile, billionaires are making billions of dollars, often from opportunities that are only open to them.

Mastodon itself is a perfect example of volunteers creating a product superior to what billionaires gave us.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod actually my goal was to point out that major capital investments are needed, and it is irrelevant if that comes from one person, a few, or millions. But, the more personally invested someone is, the less chance they will run the business fraudulently. And the more accountable the management is.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod so the original question stands-- what's the benefit of having billionaires? I see them as nothing more than wealth hoarders, in a world and nation where many are dying of poverty.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod systems of management are far more efficient with lower numbers of investors. The decision making trees are far more compact.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod boards make the big decisions, not investors. Investors might be on a board, but either way it's still a small group. It's not like the complete group of retail investors has to come to consensus.

Also, if this is the only upside to having billionaires, the (nonexistent) benefit would be far outweighed by the downsides. Like, people starving.

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod study supply chains. It is an amazingly complex dance of retailers coming to a consensus. You can earn a doctorate in the subject.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod what does that have to do with billionaires existing? Or with board deci9, for that matter?

@jamesmarshall @joat @godpod nothing. The subject evolved.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod Oh no, the libertarians have found Mastodon... 🤮

@CosmicJellyfish @joat @godpod I suggest blocking them.

@CosmicJellyfish @joat @godpod , I have thought about your post a bit longer. I have come to a few conclusions. One, you added nothing to the conversation, and are attempting to be insulting. If this is how you treat strangers, you are unlikely to be a good person. Two, you jump to assumptions about others, and are very likely highly judgemental, without concrete evidence.

Granted, I am basing this off of a single post of yours, and it is likely I am incorrect. I wouldn't bet on me being incorrect though, but the chance is there. So I should offer you a chance to explain yourself, or I wouldn't be a good person. Feel free to correct me, if you wish to, or you can block me, I can block you, and we can become better strangers.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod No one person can make a billion selling things people want - the state earmarks its funds for specific budgets, and individual people are given smaller sums of those funds to pay for their services, and as means to pay other people for their services as necessary.

@JonKramer @joat @godpod

"States generate their funds by force."

Absolutely not the case.