JonKramer, CIS-HET @JonKramer@qoto.org

@freemo @HeavenlyPossum @trinsec There is no state in the USA where you are legally required to join a union. It can be a condition of employment for a employer, but there is no legal requirement to work for that employer. I have never worked for the UAW, for example. There is no legal requirement for me to join the UAW, in any state. Even though in many places they have contracts giving them exclusive rights to provide labor to auto manufacturers.

@freemo @HeavenlyPossum @trinsec If anything, unions drive economic progress... Although I doubt this is true, the numbers show it. Name a strong non-unionized nation in history. Pick a economically powerful non-unionized African nation, or Asian. They just don't exist. Unions signal an economy that is VERY healthy. There are some exceptions... Places where the union is the government... Nazi German comes to mind. Communist China right now. But these are not labor unions. Where independent labor unions exist, the economies are strong. With no exceptions of note.

@freemo @HeavenlyPossum @trinsec , and price fixing can only affect a population if there is no competition. This is my morality argument, if it can't force economic effects, then there is nothing immoral in the act. regardless of any other details, like laws.

@freemo @HeavenlyPossum @trinsec , sure, this has happened. That doesn't make it immoral. If two guys want $10K for pens, and collude to fix those prices, I will just buy pens on Amazon for $1 each. And this is not immoral. Not my actions, or theirs. "Found that they acted illegally" isn't a good argument to me.

@freemo @ech @trinsec , those barriers exist independently of unions, corporations, anti trust laws, etc. Those are fixed costs. They can't be included in calculations of costs to compete.

@freemo @HeavenlyPossum @trinsec , a small company is 50 people maybe? That is considerably different than 2 people. Anti trust doesn't scale DOWN.

Imagine 500 farms trying to sell 100 people oranges. But each farm only produces a single orange. If two of those farmers collude to raise the prices, or fix them, what is the result? They don't sell their oranges. Even if half the farmers price fix, it won't make much of a difference. You need all 500 to fix the prices... and even then, the customers just buy bananas instead. Labor is like orange farmers. There is a vast supply. They can't price fix, unless they get control of the government, and even then the companies are multinational. They just move and buy their labor elsewhere.

@freemo @ech @trinsec ,OK, antitrust laws (I don't think this is 100% true, just assuming it is to make this point) are needed because of the cost of entry to compete. This is a major hurdle to overcome, agreed.

What is the cost to create a labor force? A couple of pornos and a six-pack will get you started. It has no extra financial burden that stops competing groups of people from entering the market. There isn't any "niche capture" to worry about. The only issues we have with unions are regulatory, and those issues are not designed to support unions, but to undermine them.

@ech @freemo @trinsec , it happens, my example was WalMart. You can see the ruins of small towns everywhere in middle america, business districts that are empty, with a crappy walmart on the edge of town.

@HeavenlyPossum @freemo @trinsec , it CAN be price fixing if the companies are required by law to only use union labor, and not freely enter into contracts that say they will only use union labor... But that would require the union to exist everywhere the company can operate. I just don't see any examples of that world wide.

@notsle @georgetakei @pezhore I'm very familiar with the paradox. I'm questioning the validity (or even the existence) of social contracts. I have seen similar arguments before... "If you were a real socialist you would give the poor all your money" or "So you hate paying taxes? Don't call the police if you are robbed." The logic is all intertwined.

@hardstyletoaster @notsle @georgetakei I tried to pick crimes with orders of magnitude between them. If you prefer, steall8ng a lunch in a dine and dash. Does that violate any social contract? Without doubt. Can we then unleash, either figuratively or literally, dogs on the thief?

@maxleibman I had a GF who was a butt model in Fredricks of Hollywood catalogs... I kinda described her similarly.

@SNerd @flexghost , and I am sure the police, other churches, and politicians have roughly equal rates of abuse. I won't investigate this, but I highly doubt 600 cases is a disproportionate number.

My only point is that the GQP is screaming the loudest, and that means they are probably (disproportionally) the worst offenders.

@SNerd @flexghost , I doubt there is a church in the world that this hasn't been an issue, going back tens of thousands of years. I don't think the issue is limited to churches, or is exceptionally problematic in any church. It is just how it is addressed by the organization and legal entities that differ.

I may be wrong. There does seem to be a disproportionate amount of abuse and coverups done by clergy, politicians, and police. Also the Boy Scouts... Organizations with access to children and in control of the government.... But not teachers. They seem to weed out those types.

@SNerd @flexghost I can remember figuring out that liars always think other people lie. I had a principal in school my 1st year of teaching, who accused everyone of lying to her. Somehow I had avoided people like that most of my life, with the exception of my father. I started to notice it with that woman. Then I read a story about how rapists think everyone else rapes, or at least would rape if they had the chance. Then it was thieves who thought everyone steals, and it is normal to steal.

This whole issue of calling out pedos... I think it too comes from a seep seated desire to abuse children. They think EVERYONE thinks like they do, and it's pure projection. People like MTG, she screams about pedos, and then abuses a child like David Hogg screaming at him on the street... She has those tendencies.

I don't think Catholics have any more propensity to abuse children than any other group, what they have is the idea that they are literally above the law because they are the CHURCH. So they cover up illegal acts. But the GQP screams too loud and too often. They have issues. When they start investigating pizza parlors they are expressing their own desires.

@notsle @georgetakei , that is an interesting way of looking at the issue. I think the only flaw is assuming a social contract exists. And if I violate any of the terms of this contract, am I subjected to violations of the contract that I didn't violate?? For example, if I steal food to feed my kids, can society murder me? If I don't abide by a single term of this contract, am I not covered by the contract in any way??

@georgetakei , I think people like that have crossed a line when they are stealing OUR air....

@freemo @trinsec , I was just using walmart as a modern example. No really remembers who Getty was.

@freemo @trinsec Yes, I am aware. But imagine if the competition had been railroads, and electric vehicles, and home hydroelectric power generation? Right now the government requires you to use public services, often owned by private industries, or supplied by private industries. It wouldn't matter if all the gas industry all ran the market with price fixing, if the people had the choice to not buy from them.

@freemo @trinsec , and yes, I recognize Walmart exists, and your model was their business model, and I know what it did to small towns. My argument is those small town refusing to allow people to just open up businesses without incorporation, taxation, regulations, etc were what allowed Walmart to do it.