JonKramer, CIS-HET @JonKramer@qoto.org

@toiletpaper @freemo @LouisIngenthron it could not have been the 1st time I was presented with the argument, but my road to my current attitude on the use of the term "race" had several notable discussions about how it is applied to Jewish peoples. And later, Islamic people.

@LouisIngenthron @mediocreape @freemo , just want you to know I have read this post, have reservations about some of the concepts (tribalism, for example) but firmly agree that labradors can be trusted irrationally.

@mediocreape @LouisIngenthron @freemo , I haven't processed the idea of human exceptionalism in this context, but otherwise I think you fairly well captured what i am thinking on this topic. Especially your last sentence.

@freemo @LouisIngenthron I have read many articles on this topic:

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-saying-i-dont-see-color-denies-the-racial-identity-of-students/2020/02

@freemo @LouisIngenthron , good point. Don't let perfection be the enemy of good, as the saying goes. I'm not sure I can eliminate the dissonance that exists in me regarding this topic.

@freemo @LouisIngenthron , that can be avoided by looking at genetics, and not thinking of Africans as a different race separate from the rest of humanity. It's a matter of perspective.

@LouisIngenthron @freemo , you have a very valid point, but I feel the positives outweigh the negatives. But, should we publish negative results when doing scientific experiments? This may not seem to be the same thing, but I think the concepts are very similar, and why I think your point is valid. I just think SOME concepts are best totally forgotten, and we will be unlikely to repeat the errors.

@mediocreape @freemo @LouisIngenthron , excellent question. I would argue that it isn't a term that should be used for human beings either.

@LouisIngenthron @freemo , I feel there are some concepts which are best forgotten. Not repurposed, but flatly ignored until they are not even memories.

@LouisIngenthron @freemo , I see your point, but I can't get past the idea that the term was popularized by people who thought they could determine the intelligence of different sub groups of humanity by locating bumps on their heads. Phrenology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology#Racism

@LouisIngenthron @freemo , I strongly agree with that statement, and by default will avoid the term "race" when I firmly believe that there is but one race, all of humanity.

@freemo @LouisIngenthron , The Online Etymology Dictionary uses this: "In 19c. also "a group regarded as forming a distinctive ethnic stock" (German, Greeks, etc.). "

Note the use of the term "ethnic". We are talking about words that have very little scientific meaning, but have emotional roots in overt racism, which by default, I try to avoid.

I assure you, I understand the root words, the basic concepts, how it is used in science, the implications when it comes to genetic disease, etc. My error was using "ethnic background" when I meant "ethnicity" because I was not attempting to discuss social behavior identification, but genetics. I assure you I was intentionally NOT talking about 'race.' My point was that there seems to be very limited examples of other disparate genetic groups that attempt to identify with a single genetic group based on a shared religion of part of that original genetic group.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/race

@freemo @LouisIngenthron I intentionally tried to avoid the word "race", since as I previously noted, the word is a recent creation designed to create a hierarchy of fitness of the different genetic groups. A hierarchy that I think objectively does not exist, and can not exist.

@freemo @LouisIngenthron At worst, I used the vernacular, in describing a concept with no rational basis, "race", using the word "ethnicity" to attempt to imply I was indicating a genetic link of family origins over relatively short evolutionary periods. If anyone doesn't understand my point, I guess I can expend on it, if requested.

@freemo @LouisIngenthron , it is an interesting side topic, and this is a good place to read more, but my reference was for genetics, not shared love of types of music, clothing, or foods.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/race-vs-ethnicity/#:~:text=Where%20does%20ethnicity%20come%20from,meaning%20%E2%80%9Cnation%2C%20people.%E2%80%9D

@freemo @LouisIngenthron , Ethnicity has the connotation of genetic background, not just cultural similarities.

Often this IS a synonym for "race".

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnicity

@freemo @LouisIngenthron , my error, I intended to use the word "ethnicity" not "ethnic"

@LouisIngenthron @freemo , Absolutely. The common cultural background is unquestionably there, but the ethnic background isn't.