Swami Vivekananda was a representative of Neo-Vedanta Philosophy.
He effectively fused Nationalism and Religion for the upliftment of poor people and to rescue them from oppression by the rich. He endorsed the sciences, leading to Tata creating the Indian Institute of science. He was a force for the propogation of Hinduism in the western Hemisphere.
He was against Untouchability, but wasn’t against the caste system. For him the caste system was one where an individual is not born into a caste but is assigned a caste based on his gunas (actions).
So someone with a lower caste parentage could work upto a higher caste and a Brahmin child could grow up to fall through the ranks of caste.
His views were that - Caste was an early social system. But its complexity led to its failure and abuse.
The teaching of Swami Vivekanada are quite complex. The complexity is evident in the way the students of #JNU treated an uninaugrated statue of Swami Vivekananda.
The thing about JNU students is that they are quite daft. They do not understand the concept of abstract thought let alone Neo-Vedanta Philosophy.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.
It is high time we renamed the college #VeerSavarkarUniversity
#Leftwing #rightwing #fasciCommunist #india #kashmir #ayodhya
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@Full_marx If it is based on actions then who would be the authority as to who is or is not in a particular caste?
@freemo The golden question.
Who gets to decide who has worked enough to be a Brahmin and who should be demoted.
The authority to enforce this system was in three places.
1. The kings court
2. The high priests who would induct new Brahmins or demote existing ones
3. The social constitution - “Manusmriti”-V1.0
All three were liable to corruption. But not together, and that was the checks and balance. But during the time of regime changes this document would get vulnerable to the greed of Brahmins.
During the reign of Hindu King Chandra Gupta this system is said to have worked so well that India was known as the Golden sparrow.(other factors contributed too)
But when gupta died, it is said that Brahmins modified the document to fix their place in the caste system permanently. The guna operating principle was abandoned. Welcome Manusmriti V2.0
It was a fork altogether!!
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If only they had AI at that time to Dictate caste based on deeds alone. A persons social status depending directly on what he has done for the betterment of society. I believe we would have rid humanity of all problems by now.
The system was never supposed to be exclusive, it was inclusive and freely allowed vertical movement.
I just can’t ever help feeling that the caste system from Manusmriti V1.0 as a social system was way ahead of its time.
It feels to me like a radical experiment in social sciences that went wrong due to the corruption of a few scientists.
Was it necessary to conduct this experiment? I don’t know.
Then is it necessary to conduct any experiment?
@Full_marx Then when someone was born do they all start out in the lower caste and have to go through the same hardships to rise? Would the children of the members of the highest caste give birth automatically to children of the lower caste?
@freemo No children born to Brahmins would be brahmins as the Manusmriti assumed that under the parentage of Brahmin Parents their kids would gain sufficient knowledge and pick a school of philosophy to study further.
But irrespective of that , the kids had to prove their affiliation to a school of though before they reached an age where they could break celibacy.
Now here is the best part.
In any settlement, or human habitation.
It was the responsibility of Brahmins(Who were given huge houses with huge courtyards) to attempt administration of philosophical knowledge to children born to lower castes.
If a trader caste decides to teach his child trading, he was free to pull his child out from under the mentorship of a brahmin.
Similarly, a warrior caste would learn the art of defence under a sage. It was uncommon for warriors to renounce warfare as it threatened state security.
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But aren't you curious about untouchability?
@Full_marx And yes id be curious about untouchables and the system as a whole for sure, so happy you shared.
@freemo @Full_marx
Caste discrimination affects more than 260 millions in India.
I, myself could be categorized as an 'Untouchable' based on my caste. But since I grew up in a metropolitan city and my parents are well educated, I never faced any discrimination. Hence I consider myself a privileged untouchable. But once I leave the cities and venture into towns/villages, Caste discrimination incident surges. We are not allowed inside temples, or enter a street, or love/ marry someone who doesn't belong to our caste or drink water from the same well, etc. People literally get killed for doing any of this.
But as @Full_marx mentioned, caste system is a remnant of the past. Current caste discrimination has nothing to do with religion (Hinduism), you could easily see a pattern. It's about power, ego and illiteracy.
( Although few powerful lower caste groups/parties use this as a means to gain power & sympathy )
I mean, we are all humans right?
As a millennial I don't want to read Manusmriti to understand caste system. I can see what is happening around me & judge the system often exploited mercilessly by powerful groups hiding being the mask of religion.
How is that discrimination enforced? If you travel to some small town and try to enter a temple, and they say you cant for being "untouchable" how do they know you are untouchable in the first place?
@freemo @Full_marx
Many temples used to (or still) have boards that says "Untouchables are not allowed".
If you live in a village, Dalits and other lower caste people live in a particular part of the said village.
So if I grew up there, and if I'm from that 'part' of the village. I become an untouchable by default.
Back then, Dalit childrens were made to sit separately even in schools. And "untouchables" hardly got any education & They're economically poor.
And “Untouchables” are often forcibly assigned the most dirty, menial and hazardous jobs, such as cleaning human waste.
1, Manual Scavenging deaths (https://www.timesnownews.com/mirror-now/civic-issues/article/chennai-manual-scavenger-dives-into-septic-tank-to-save-brother-dies-instantly/514401) - This happened day before yesterday.
2, Indian couple stoned for marrying outside caste (https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/11/article/indian-couple-stoned-for-marrying-outside-caste/)
3, In Tamil Nadu, Anatomy of A caste crime : Families devastated by Honour Killings (https://www.firstpost.com/long-reads/in-tamil-nadu-anatomy-of-a-caste-crime-families-devastated-by-honour-killings-speak-of-the-scourge-7033391.html)
4, Amrutha : 'My father ordered my husband's murder' (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45570981)
5, Caste tensions in Madurai village : Dalit families forced to pull kids out of school (https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/caste-tensions-madurai-village-dalit-families-forced-pull-kids-out-school-103609)
These incidents happened over the last few months. (Hundred more could've happened during the same period and i can't possibly share them)
Also, @freemo , you can 'not' hide this information. Its decided by birth and you certificate carries that information. If I want to study in a school or apply for a job, We need to provide this information.
You said it is recorded on your certificate. So Birth Certificates have your caste on it and it is still the case?
India offers quotas for lower castes.
Quotas in college admission, government jobs etc.
Many people in villages try to claim the benefits under the quotas.
some need it, some are there for the freebies.
that's another way people end up broadcasting their caste
there are many affluent people who may be living next door to you, and you wouldn't even know that they were untouchable
if you have money you can renounce caste
This is where the conversation of abolishing caste based reservation comes in. Analysts say that if we stop distributing freebies on the basis of caste. People will just stop identifying themselves as lower caste.
The left is vehemently opposed to this, and now it is a raging debate in our country.
this may stop the ghettoisation observed in villages
@Full_marx @freemo
"If you have money, renounce caste" Yes. But not everyone has money right?
Racial Wealth Gap - is not a myth. You can see that in any developed nation.
In India its worse. Caste Reservation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India) is there to help these people like @freemo mentioned. ('Wouldnt it make more sense to help people based on their ambitions, ability, and financial ability to help themselves)
A lower caste will always remain at the lowest part of the society if we abolish Reservation. No opportunities, no exposure, and how can you expect them to rise up?
There are three boxes that one can tick
- general
-OBC (other backward c.)
-SC/ST (scheduled c, scheduled tribe.)
@freemo Now you tell me what stops an affluent person from ticking general.
@Full_marx @freemo I was asked to provide proof for my caste. How will I get a General category? All my ancestors data was there. (It actually was)
I respect your opinion. But I disagree.
Can you ask a African american citizen to forget his past? (Sorry for the analogy )
Untouchables do not want to be considered as upper castes or general category. We were prejudiced for centuries. Its still happening, please check the news articles. DO you think that these victims FLAUNTED their caste certificates?!
They lost their lives because of their caste.
I just want to say this and end the conversation,
I am economically stable because of my parents and I never took advantage of reservation. But I myself faced discrimination and I saw people suffer. Sorry if I sounded rude.
