@freemo No children born to Brahmins would be brahmins as the Manusmriti assumed that under the parentage of Brahmin Parents their kids would gain sufficient knowledge and pick a school of philosophy to study further.

But irrespective of that , the kids had to prove their affiliation to a school of though before they reached an age where they could break celibacy.

Now here is the best part.

In any settlement, or human habitation.

It was the responsibility of Brahmins(Who were given huge houses with huge courtyards) to attempt administration of philosophical knowledge to children born to lower castes.

If a trader caste decides to teach his child trading, he was free to pull his child out from under the mentorship of a brahmin.

Similarly, a warrior caste would learn the art of defence under a sage. It was uncommon for warriors to renounce warfare as it threatened state security.

---------------------

But aren't you curious about untouchability?

@Full_marx That sounds like a horrible system :( That right there, being born into the caste system (regardless of mobility) is exactly why it is and should be, seen as a gross human rights violation.

I find the historical information interesting, so thanks for sharing. More than happy it is in the past though.

@freemo

Manusmriti was written in 2nd Century BC.

Ofcourse its a human rights violation!!

Violating human rights was a trend back then.

But I don't have any qualms about entertaining it as a thought experiment.

-----------------------

Untouchability Root Cause

So the social constitution Manusmriti 1.0 was enforced in capital cities. These are medieval urban centres. Trader Hubs. Centers for Thought.

It also stretched to less populated areas around urban centers.

But there also existed vast human settlements that generally went unaccounted for. Tribals, Adivasis, those disconnected by geography.

Anybody moving into an urban centre had to start from the bottom. This put all migrants at a disadvantage. But they could enter nonetheless. There was no restriction as such.

So when Manusmriti 2.0 came about, the Brahmins shameless blocked their entry into the system altogether. They modified it yet again. Welcome Manusmriti 3.0

When people asked questions, the brahmins (who were rampantly feeding superstitions and rituals at that time) used their influence to convince the masses that these migrants were impure and should be avoided at all costs.

Some theorists say that the trader classes wanted it this way, as these migrants could now be used as slave labour.
Remember that Traders were big donators to brahmins. Brahmins always survived on alms.

Fucking Beggars!!

The Brahmins hence declared them untouchable.

And here we are today. 2000 years later.

@Full_marx
I have no issue with considering it as a thought experiment either. In fact if everyone born started at the lowest cast and needed to test out through some objective or fair method then i could see it as possibly being beneficial..

@Full_marx And yes id be curious about untouchables and the system as a whole for sure, so happy you shared.

@freemo @Full_marx
Caste discrimination affects more than 260 millions in India.
I, myself could be categorized as an 'Untouchable' based on my caste. But since I grew up in a metropolitan city and my parents are well educated, I never faced any discrimination. Hence I consider myself a privileged untouchable. But once I leave the cities and venture into towns/villages, Caste discrimination incident surges. We are not allowed inside temples, or enter a street, or love/ marry someone who doesn't belong to our caste or drink water from the same well, etc. People literally get killed for doing any of this.
But as @Full_marx mentioned, caste system is a remnant of the past. Current caste discrimination has nothing to do with religion (Hinduism), you could easily see a pattern. It's about power, ego and illiteracy.
( Although few powerful lower caste groups/parties use this as a means to gain power & sympathy )

I mean, we are all humans right?
As a millennial I don't want to read Manusmriti to understand caste system. I can see what is happening around me & judge the system often exploited mercilessly by powerful groups hiding being the mask of religion.

@Karthikdeva

How is that discrimination enforced? If you travel to some small town and try to enter a temple, and they say you cant for being "untouchable" how do they know you are untouchable in the first place?

@Full_marx

@freemo he meant, when he goes back to his village/town where his parents grew up, people still discriminate.
In villages, there's less anonymity. People know each other personally and almost every thing about the fellow residents

@Karthikdeva @Full_marx

@_lunawinters

Interesting. But how did they learn what the persons caste is when they first moved there, even if it was three generations back or something.

It seems like one of those things that would be easy to circumvent by just never telling people in the first place.

@Karthikdeva @Full_marx

@freemo
This stuff is public records and I believe that if you refuse to show your lineage you're automatically outcaste
@_lunawinters @Karthikdeva @Full_marx

@static

If someone new to the village claimed to be of higher class, and in fact was not, where would one go to get access to the "public record" to verify that? Where is this public record stored and how to citizens query it in order to apply their prejudice?

@Full_marx @Karthikdeva @_lunawinters

@freemo @static @Full_marx @_lunawinters " The application forms are available either online or from the concerned local office in the City/Town/Village, which is usually the office of the SDM (Sub-Divisional Magistrate) or of the Tehsil or Revenue Department." - So there is a Tehsildar office in every town. They are in-charge of providing and maintaining these documents.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehsildar)

@Karthikdeva

So just go to your local Tehsildar office and ask for the caste of some random guy who moved in (even if he was born half way across the country) and they will provide that information as it is recorded from birth... damn.. and they still require that recorded from birth. wow....

What about me as someone who is not indian and never born into a caste of any kind. If i went to india would i be treated the same as an untouchable?

@static @Full_marx @_lunawinters

@freemo @static @Full_marx @_lunawinters I don't you'll be assigned one if you're born outside India

@Karthikdeva

So if im born outside of india, and thus castless, can i enter a temple that says "no untouchables"?

If i had children in india would they also lack a caste?

@static @Full_marx @_lunawinters

@freemo @Karthikdeva @static @_lunawinters Foreigners are not assigned caste.

I don't have a caste certificate.

Most temples don't ask you to show a caste certificate before entering, that is the most absurd thing I have heard. I say most because I can't represent the nation, but in 29 years of my existence I have never been asked my caste certificate.

I doubt it is something people carry in their wallets.

My mom is from Kanyakumari, tip of south India, rampant caste issues, yet never asked for caste certificate.

I don't look south indian maybe that's why.

but my grandma used to say that lower caste wasn't allowed in these temples before independence.

Then Savarkar and Gandhi started forcing these dalits to sit inside temples and now nobody checks.

yes the same savarkar that created the Hindutva ideology of a caste less india.

@Full_marx

I dont think anyone ever said that you need to show a caste certificate to enter a temple. I am mostly just curious how templed enforce it at all. But I think that was answered earlier as small villages tend to know eachother and their caste wel.

@Karthikdeva @static @_lunawinters

@freemo @Full_marx
Many temples used to (or still) have boards that says "Untouchables are not allowed".
If you live in a village, Dalits and other lower caste people live in a particular part of the said village.
So if I grew up there, and if I'm from that 'part' of the village. I become an untouchable by default.
Back then, Dalit childrens were made to sit separately even in schools. And "untouchables" hardly got any education & They're economically poor.
And “Untouchables” are often forcibly assigned the most dirty, menial and hazardous jobs, such as cleaning human waste.

1, Manual Scavenging deaths (https://www.timesnownews.com/mirror-now/civic-issues/article/chennai-manual-scavenger-dives-into-septic-tank-to-save-brother-dies-instantly/514401) - This happened day before yesterday.
2, Indian couple stoned for marrying outside caste (https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/11/article/indian-couple-stoned-for-marrying-outside-caste/)
3, In Tamil Nadu, Anatomy of A caste crime : Families devastated by Honour Killings (https://www.firstpost.com/long-reads/in-tamil-nadu-anatomy-of-a-caste-crime-families-devastated-by-honour-killings-speak-of-the-scourge-7033391.html)
4, Amrutha : 'My father ordered my husband's murder' (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45570981)
5, Caste tensions in Madurai village : Dalit families forced to pull kids out of school (https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/caste-tensions-madurai-village-dalit-families-forced-pull-kids-out-school-103609)

These incidents happened over the last few months. (Hundred more could've happened during the same period and i can't possibly share them)
Also, @freemo , you can 'not' hide this information. Its decided by birth and you certificate carries that information. If I want to study in a school or apply for a job, We need to provide this information.

@Karthikdeva

So basically its just assumed based on where you currently live.. If a high caste person lost their money and moved to a poor village their children would be treated as untouchable despite their history as a higher caste?

If someone happens to gain financial freedom (I know the deck is stacked against them) and move to a different small village and move into the area of higher caste, most people would just start assuming they were of that caste as well?

@Full_marx

@freemo @Full_marx Nope, It never works like that. There are lot of rich "untouchables" and poor upper caste people.
Current president of India is an untouchable, and he wasn't allowed inside a temple last year - https://www.news18.com/news/india/not-just-president-kovind-even-mahatma-gandhi-and-indira-were-stopped-at-jagannath-temple-1792257.html

@Karthikdeva

I see, very informative thank you.

@Full_marx

@Karthikdeva @freemo

I said it was one of the ways people ended up broadcasting caste.

Not the only way.

Anyway even I'm just Blue Skying the possible reasons!!

@Karthikdeva

You said it is recorded on your certificate. So Birth Certificates have your caste on it and it is still the case?

@Full_marx

@freemo @Full_marx There is a separate certificate for caste. You need to apply one. (My parents did it for me, i wasn't aware of this caste system until i was 17, I didn't know the significance behind my caste certificate. I thought it was just another document)
No citizen of India can escape from applying one. They already have all the data about our ancestors and which caste they belong to. You can't change it either.

@Karthikdeva

All very scary. I thought the caste system was abolished a while ago :(

@Full_marx

@freemo @Karthikdeva

India offers quotas for lower castes.

Quotas in college admission, government jobs etc.

Many people in villages try to claim the benefits under the quotas.

some need it, some are there for the freebies.

that's another way people end up broadcasting their caste

there are many affluent people who may be living next door to you, and you wouldn't even know that they were untouchable

if you have money you can renounce caste

This is where the conversation of abolishing caste based reservation comes in. Analysts say that if we stop distributing freebies on the basis of caste. People will just stop identifying themselves as lower caste.

The left is vehemently opposed to this, and now it is a raging debate in our country.

this may stop the ghettoisation observed in villages

@Full_marx

Wouldnt it make more sense to help people based on their ambitions, ability, and financial ability to help themselves.. if someone is poor and tries to be a good student shouldnt we help them just as quickly if htey are a low caste as we would if they were a high caste?

Similarly wouldnt the problem be simply solved by making the caste certificate system no longer searchable to the public?

@Karthikdeva

@freemo @Karthikdeva The caste certificate is defended by the lower caste themselves.

They say they need it to claim reservations.

Now if we try removing the certificate, they say we are discriminating against centuries of oppression.

If we keep it, the west calls us cow dung worshipers.

What a double whammy no?

That's why I'm Right Wing.

@Full_marx

Seems it could just be solved by keeping the certificates but making it so you cant publicly search the certificate record. So it can only be known what caste someone is if they volunteer that information. That seems as though it would address both sets of concerns here.. though maybe im missing something.

@Karthikdeva

@freemo @Karthikdeva

It is illegal to look up somebody's caste.

People generally bribe their way through it.

@Full_marx

If it is illegal to look up someones caste it would seem this is in direct contradiction to what Karthikdeva stated... Obviously i have no idea which is true. But if it is illegal to lookup someones caste that seems to be a good first step to abolishing it.

@Karthikdeva

@freemo @Full_marx
I was asked about my caste (In the forms that I had to fill) when i applied for my school and college. My degree certificates from school & colleges (Transfer/migration certificate) carries the information that I belong to this particular caste.

@Karthikdeva

Was it required you fill in that information or optional? It seems marx suggests that is on the form as an optional field more to get aid. Assuming marx is right then I'd imagine it is optional. If its a requirement then that would disagree with marx assertion.

If marx is correct and it is illegal to search for a persons caste information then wouldnt it be trivial to just lie on that form?

@Full_marx

@freemo @Full_marx @Karthikdeva "Caste discrimination" is not the issue in 21st-century India, well for the most part.

What remains problem is caste-based reservations. Politicians are busy appeasing certain 'castes', wiping their arses, to woo them to get votes.

The caste-based reservations do no help to the poor and underprivileged.
Here's a paper on this, if you are interested: https://www.parisschoolofeconomics.eu/IMG/pdf/JobMarket-2paper-CASSAN-PSE.pdf

@crackurbones

Thanks so much for the info

@Full_marx @Karthikdeva

@crackurbones @freemo

Found this on Quora

It should be noted that the categories are really only used to identify the level of encouragement a person/family/caste needs for improving their quality of life and eventually society. Reservation was seen as a tool for making all our society equal in the future and one day it would be needed no more. But unfortunately like a person in pain becoming too dependent on pain relievers, that he does not recognize when they are not needed, to the point it is an addiction… reservation has also become an addiction to more than a few people… However, it should be noted that there are always persons who do need those pain relievers genuinely. It is not the fault of the medicine but the fault of the masses who cannot differentiate between want and need. It should also be noted that there are always people who don’t really need it but don’t like it when there are others who are getting it, just because they can’t get it.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-OBC-and-general-category

#fascicommunism #JNU #leftwing #rightwing #fascicommunist #india

@Full_marx You know what? Sometimes I feel that India has to choose between ‘equality’ and ‘democracy’ – India can't be "world's largest democracy" and "a free & equal society" at the same time.

Any democratic government that puts an end to this caste-based reservations will upset the caste "vote banks", and thus will not be able to win elections for the next term. There are reservations for castes not because government imposes them on people, but because people force the government to reserve seats for the castes. In a democracy, you cannot upset the mass, which can be ignorant and greedy — the reason why Socrates hated democracy.

@freemo

@crackurbones

Sometimes the best solutions require, tough and bold decisions. These decisions are often unpopular, and the paradox here is that popularity is an important tool to facilitate the functioning of Democracy.

As you already said, risking your popularity to do the right and most rational thing requires some balls(gender neutral).

The global media will hate you, the UN will shame you, but the people on the ground, who live the reality will thank you.

@freemo

@Full_marx

I agree, partly. But thats why no nations are a "Direct Democracy", as in, popular decision doesnt directly dictate decisions. Most democracies are in fact "Republics", a representative democracy. The idea being we can vote for people on their integrity, wisdom, and expertise, and then rely on them to make informed decisions, which may themselves be unpopular, but the positive effects speak for themselves in the end.

In theory thats all good, and it should work. The problem is we have media, and worse yet, actual news, that twists reality for a particular politicial agenda. So people no longer have an honest sense of if an unpopular decision has a positive result, because even if it does the media will make sure to twist it into something negative if they dont happen to support that particular decision or politician.

@crackurbones

@freemo

Yes. Curtis Yarvin calls it the Cathedral.

But the Cathedral includes the media and education system.

There was an essay I was reading which was fire.

It's about the nature of democracy.

https://americanmind.org/essays/the-clear-pill-part-1-of-5-the-four-stroke-regime/

Is he on Mastadon?

@crackurbones

@Full_marx @freemo Another argument used is "historical discrimination", that the so-called "lower castes" have been discriminated in the past, which while true is NOT a justification of reservations.

LGBTQs in the west have historically been discriminated against, and they still continue to face discrimination. I'm yet to come across a western government that reserves seats in universities, jobs, and even promotions in jobs for queers.

Reservations actually further divides the society. The 'general' people, who do not get reservations, feel that the lower castes have got accepted into prestigious universities only because of reservations. This makes them feel discriminated against and thus fuels hate against the ones that get reservations.

If the so-called lower castes really want to integrate with the broader Indian society, they have to voluntarily give up reservations. That's the only way out. Period.

A democratic government cannot put an end to reservations unless people demand the government to end reservations.

@crackurbones

Actually most countries int he WEST do exactly this, reserve jobs for LGBT, well sorta.

We have affirmative action in the USA. It basically states that you need to hire minorities, even if they are less qualified, to ensure diversification. It effectively equates to a quota.

Universities are well known for having lower requirements for minorities, including LGBT, to help balance past and current discrimination against them.

@Full_marx

@freemo Thanks for the correction, I'm no expert on how universities work in the west.

But in India the issue is that poverty has little correlation with caste. A person in India may be from the higher castes and still be sleeping hungry many nights; a person might be possessing caste certificates that makes them eligible for relaxed rules for jobs and education, while living in a posh bungalow, driving Lamborghinis, and whining about oppression on social media from their iPhones.

And personally I feel that talent, skills and merit should always be given priority, not diversity. Why can't we just be humans? @Full_marx

@Full_marx @freemo
"If you have money, renounce caste" Yes. But not everyone has money right?
Racial Wealth Gap - is not a myth. You can see that in any developed nation.
In India its worse. Caste Reservation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India) is there to help these people like @freemo mentioned. ('Wouldnt it make more sense to help people based on their ambitions, ability, and financial ability to help themselves)
A lower caste will always remain at the lowest part of the society if we abolish Reservation. No opportunities, no exposure, and how can you expect them to rise up?

@Karthikdeva

There are three boxes that one can tick

- general
-OBC (other backward c.)
-SC/ST (scheduled c, scheduled tribe.)

@freemo Now you tell me what stops an affluent person from ticking general.

@Full_marx @Karthikdeva Im not sure i can answer that as im not sure how those various check boxes relate to various castes. So im afraid I dont understand the situation well enough to understand that screenshot.

@freemo

In short it is not compulsory to declare your caste.

You always have the option to declare general.

you declare caste to get access to reservation quotas.

SC-Scheduled Caste as notified and recognised by census

ST-Scheduled Tribe as notified and reg by census

OBC-Other Backward Class not yet reg or scheduled

PH-Physically Handicaped

Ex-Serviceman-Armed Forces

@Karthikdeva

@Full_marx @freemo I was asked to provide proof for my caste. How will I get a General category? All my ancestors data was there. (It actually was)
I respect your opinion. But I disagree.
Can you ask a African american citizen to forget his past? (Sorry for the analogy )
Untouchables do not want to be considered as upper castes or general category. We were prejudiced for centuries. Its still happening, please check the news articles. DO you think that these victims FLAUNTED their caste certificates?!
They lost their lives because of their caste.
I just want to say this and end the conversation,
I am economically stable because of my parents and I never took advantage of reservation. But I myself faced discrimination and I saw people suffer. Sorry if I sounded rude.

@Karthikdeva

No you sound perfectly rational.
Please don't ever apologise on my thread again.

@freemo

@Full_marx @freemo :)