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Here's a summary of the logic of the anti-maskers / anti-vaxers in the US:

"There is no virus, there is no pandemic, it's a government conspiracy."

"And the pandemic will miraculously disappear in a few weeks."

"Also, the vaccine doesn't work against the virus."

"And masks won't stop the pandemic either."

"Besides, the pandemic has only killed less than 1% of the population -- only about 600,000 people."

"Also, it's the illegal aliens who are spreading in the virus (because the virus is sentient and knows who is legal and who isn't)."

"And Biden isn't vaccinating the illegals."

"And hey, why are we spending tax dollars to vaccinate the illegals?"

"Plus, I have a constitutional right to carry a biological weapon."

"And I have a right to control my own body (as long as I'm not trying to prevent myself from breeding)."

"Also, wearing a mask makes me uncomfortable, and so does watching all those people dying in the hospital from COVID-19."

-19

@Pat Sadly fairly valid, at least on the anti-vax side. By that I mean, the people who refuse the vaccine outright, not the far more reasonable people who are just waiting for the obvious safety reasons. Anti-maskers on the other hand seem to have a different M.O. though there is some overlap.

Anyway that said this absolutely covers a huge chunk of people, and it is sad.

@freemo
I wondered how you'd react to that one -- you've commented on masks before...

The toot was just satire, there's a spectrum opinion and everybody's an individual.

>"people who are just waiting for the obvious safety reasons"

Yes, I think that's why they chose the phrase "vaccine hesitancy" -- to implant in people's heads that they are not rejecting it outright, only "hesitating" and will get vaccinated eventually.

There are perfectly valid reasons why a particular individual might not choose to get vaccinated, but those reasons a very specific and rare.

What we need is a prophylactic of critical reasoning education.

@Pat right, there arent many good reasons to just be against vaccines all together short of immunodeficient people or something.

As for the hesitant group, I find them far more reasonable than either extreme really. Most are just waiting for a year or two to pass to make up for the lack of long-term safety testing we normally require of vaccines (And bypassed), seems like the most reasonable course honestly. What bothers me more is that these people tend to be a small minority, most are either "you MUST be vaccinated NOW!" or just against them all together.

Most of it just comes down to stupidity and thats what makes it so much more annoying.

@freemo
The choice varies by each individual's situation. For an elderly person in a group home at very high risk from the virus, it's a no-brainer to get vaccinated. Or someone who lives with a high-risk family member who doesn't want to bring the virus home and infect a loved one.

For a young person who is healthy and who hasn't done much research on the vaccines, it makes sense from a purely self-centered view to take a chance with the virus, but I wouldn't want it on my conscience if I infected someone and it spread and caused a thousand people to die.

@Pat I'm not sure its as much of a no brainer as you might suggest. The problem is that we are dealing with such a big unknown, with the safety not being conducted for long term, that I dont think its so straight forward.

There is no way anyone could even evaluate the long-term risks, since we have no data. We cant even reliably infer cause and effect due to the same lack of data. For example we know coronavirus can cause Parkinson and can cause the disease to progress, but we dont know if the vaccine has any risks in that regard since these are long-term effects. My mom did develop Parkinson shortly after being vaccinated and her doctors simply cant tell her either way if the vaccine played a role, the data isnt there to say.

mRNA treatment is particularly tricky as it isnt just a new vaccine but a relatively new delivery method. One concern that we wont be able to really know for 50+ years is the possibility of misfolding and thus causing prion disease. Wouldn't be the first time that rushing to treat a disease and skipping safety tests or proper vetting resulting in more damage than the disease would have caused.

If one thing history should tell us its that rushing to cures as we are doing here tends to be a very bad decision.

@freemo
I'm sorry to hear about your mother. You have my condolences.

For an elderly person, I mean a 80+ years, they don't worry much about an issue that might come up 10-20 years down the road.

Prion disease is very rare, but yes it cooks for a long time before the damage is detected. I haven't seen any research suggesting that the specific spike protein coded in the vaccines could become self-replicating in a way like a prion does.

Also, the messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA) molecules in the vaccine are broken down very quickly in the body, so there's not much chance for mutations to occur. Such an occurrence would be very rare.

@Pat

"I haven't seen any research suggesting that the specific spike protein coded in the vaccines could become self-replicating in a way like a prion does."

You wont find any such research because we simply have no data to research any such claims. The point here is that it is an unknown, and we are dealing with a process we engineered that involves the folding of proteins. So its a possible concern, but without data we could only guess.

For someone 80+ I think they have a good argument to take the vaccine due to the high risk and the fact that they dont have much life left.

The issue with the mRNA is not mutations so much as misfolding due to unknown variables. We already dont really know how misfolding happens or how that can lead to prion disease. It is one of those diseases we are grasping at straws to understand. But when you try to hijack the system to fold your own proteins, considering the unknowns, it is one of countless possible concerns. It could be, for example, that other components other than the mRNA directly encoded might help prevent misfolding.

Simply put, we know too little and are working with too new a technology to not be extra cautious. But instead of being cautious we went the other route and rushed to get it out there. Its a recipe for disaster, but lets hope we wind up on the side of luck.

Either way the point is, being cautious and delaying taking the vaccine is a perfectly rational and non-selfish thing to do.

@freemo@qoto.org @Pat@qoto.org My vaccination record is literally as long as my arm. I've even had anthrax and smallpox vaccinations. I still wear my mask even though it's optional at work and most places I go.

I'm waiting at least a few years before getting the COVID-19 vaccination because they didn't test it properly beforehand. I'm in a low risk group, have already had it twice with mild symptoms, and I'm not interested in being a guinea pig. When I see that people aren't melting from their DNA being screwed around with and if COVID-19 is still even an issue, then I'll get the vaccine. I didn't get vaccinated for swine flu and I survived being sick with that too.

@sergeantcat

All very reasonable. I'd say the most responsible thing to do is wait about 2 years from the initial vaccine being released and at that point consider the safety. Anything less just seems a bit reckless to me unless your high risk or something.

@Pat

@freemo @Pat @sergeantcat I've done my research, found the Covid vaccines presently in existence are unacceptably unsafe. Although the risk of death is lower than Covid, it's still unacceptably high, but the risk of permanent severe neurological and cardiovascular damage is much higher, and it absolutely will take a few notches off your telomeres as every cell that displays the spike protein will then me targeted by macrophages for destruction requiring their replacement and resulting in severe inflammation and reduction in function in the meantime. So severe in fact that women who receive the vaccine are told not to get a mammogram within a month as the inflammation it causes to the lymphatic tissues in their breasts can easily be mistaken for cancer. Now, with regards to conspiracy, absolutely the virus is a conspiracy, it was created in the lab, and anybody that watched the hearings with Paul Rand would be well aware of this. That doesn't mean it's not a threat or that it's unreal, it means it was not created by nature and the same people who created the virus created the vaccine, and with the same agenda, global depopulation.

@nanook

To me thats patently false as well. While I think its fine to be cautious and long term safety is mostly an unknown, any claim that it is demonstrably unsafe at this junction is just as invalid as saying it is demonstrably safe.

In short we have no evidence that is safe or unsafe long term.

@Pat @sergeantcat

@icedquinn

Indeed, and I think its a fine stance to say "since the long term safety is established I will treat this as unsafe"... but its still a leap to go from that to say "the proof is in, and its clearly unsafe"

@nanook @sergeantcat @Pat

@freemo @nanook @sergeantcat @Pat it is markedly less safe than any vaccine with FDA approval. vaccines have been terminated for less than a hundred deaths. this one now has 10k in the US alone.

I think it's safe to say by the standard of any other vaccine these are failures.

@icedquinn

Please cite your 10k figure and how it compares to other vaccines. I've seen nothing to suggest it causes any more deaths than vaccines in the past for the most part.

That said, the number of deaths alone wouldnt be a measure for safety. Ultimately with all drugs the measure is simple... Does the drug improve your chance of survival by taking it, or not. A vaccine can cause as many deaths as it causes, so long as the overall number of deaths is reduced then its a win.

@nanook @sergeantcat @Pat

@freemo @Pat @nanook @sergeantcat year by year vaers didn't even have 1,000 deaths for any given year. Covid has basically destroyed the bar chart.
@Pat @freemo @nanook @sergeantcat as i recall scotland recently published similar; other countries are having a problem where their vaccine databases have respectively gone from "it kills almost nobody" to "most deadly vaccine in approval history" :comfyshrug:

@icedquinn

Then your statement is patently false. VARES has not reported 10K deaths due to the vaccine, nor are most entries in VARES actually determined to be due to the vaccine, thats not how VARES works.

@nanook @sergeantcat @Pat

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@nanook since you've been doing the deep dives what are your thoughts on ivermectin's risk profile? i read in to it a small amount but i didn't run in to anything as severe as deaths, platelet collapse, myocardias etc. a couple hospitalizations and some inflammation issues maybe.

@freemo @Pat @sergeantcat

@freemo @sergeantcat

Thank God that the guys who stormed the beaches during Operation Overlord didn't use that same calculus.

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