This is a very well thought out and written examination of the proposal to use hydrogen for transportation. Electricity can come from myriad sources, while hydrogen has only one competitive source – the fossil fuel industry.
Why on Earth would anyone want to choose to lock themselves into a single supplier that needs to fight oil wars all over the world to maintain their supply, when you can just use electricity which is available literally anywhere on Earth?
@Pat @antares @richardknott You're regurgitating BEV propaganda here. H₂ can also be made from many sources. It is identical to electricity. BEV companies are doing all they can to make you not realize that, because it would represent a disruptive threat to batteries.
Remember, it is the battery that is the fundamental weakness of the BEV. Anything that removes the batteries and replaces it with something more plentiful is a potential replacement for BEVs. And that is what H₂ cars represent.
>"You're regurgitating BEV propaganda here. H₂ can also be made from many sources..."
I'm not regurgitating anything, I figured this out on my own long before this even became an issue, using fundamental scientific principles.
This is why I've driven an electric car for many years now. It works much better than using fuel from the fossil fuel industry.
If you want to drive a hydrogen-powered car, nobody is stopping you. But make sure that all of the costs -- the oil wars, oil spills, oil industry subsidies, air pollution -- are all paid for by those who choose to use that fuel.
Hydrogen does not have carbon in it. It is made from water. It is can also be made entirely with renewable energy. FCEVs are literally EVs in fact. They are the same basic idea as BEVs.
As a result, all of this is self-evident BEV propaganda. It's really a clever method of brainwashing. People are just being fooled into believing they came to this conclusion on their own.
@Hypx @richardknott @Pat @antares
Many people in Germany charge their BEVs from their own solar panels with 100% green electeicity. Electricity in Germany generally is about 50% renewable. How many people put hydrogen into their Mirai that they themselves produce? Has the percentage of green hydrogen reached 50%?
The claims of majority renewable energy is an act of severe greenwashing. It's actually closer to 30%, once you realize that biomass doesn't count as renewable, and nuclear is now replaced with fossil fuels.
Meanwhile, you can switch 100% green hydrogen if you really wanted. It is the same concept as green electricity.
@denki @richardknott @Pat @antares The electric grid has ran into a wall. Without energy storage, it will simply fail to reach 100% zero emissions. Everyone, including Tesla has accepted the need for hydrogen for energy storage.
So what you are doing is not far off from denying climate change altogether. It is just science denial and refusal to accept evidence.
And so do I (as I have state to you several times now). It just does not make a lot of sense in cars. It does not make a lot of sense in short-term storage. Where it shines is long-term storage.
You are not making a coherent argument. You are making a purely dishonest argument that hydrogen cannot be used in cars directly, despite it being used in cars anyways. This is simply too pathetic of an argument to respect on any level. You might as well be a climate change denier since you clearly don't care about facts.
True. Just as you can switch to 100% green electricity if you wanted. Actually, switching to 100% green electricity likely requires using hydrogen as a storage medium.
It just does not make sense to use hydrogen in cars (except for niches).
The other point is that fuel cells and electrolyzer systems are also electrochemical systems. They will have the same level of efficiency as batteries. So there is no point in wasting so much resources on a short term efficiency gain.
And when that day (ever) comes, the people who do not mind the maintenance of the high-pressure system will switch to hydrogen.
Fuel-cells and electrolyseurs have been mature technologies for decades. I won't hold my breath for any groundbreaking efficiency-gains in the near future.
@denki @richardknott @Pat @antares More BEV propaganda. We already have hydrogen powered cars. They do not have any sort of problematic high costs. Certainly, no more than BEVs having to worry about battery replace costs.
You are also completely out of date and stuck in the past on the subject of fuel cell technology. Near 100% efficient electrolyzers are here now:
@richardknott @denki @Pat @antares Because a fuel cell is literally an electrochemical system, just like a battery. In fact, they are effectively metal-air batteries. The difference in efficiency is minor and is merely the difference between different cell designs. Future advances will shrink such differences even further. BEV propaganda is the only thing telling us otherwise.
@Hypx @richardknott @denki @Pat @antares Just that it does not. Hydrogen is to fill the gaps of the much-dreaded dark lull, which happens occasionally, but it doesn't last long. Most of the time, you charge your BEV while parking (it's parking 23 hours a day), and because the battery is sized for long distances, much more than the daily commute, you can charge easily just when renewable electricity is available.
V2L/H/G also can help you to use that oversized battery for more good things.
Also, the math was done with existing levels of demand They are not accounting for total electrification of everything, which will radically increase electricity demand, especially in winter.
Eventually, Germany will have to accept hydrogen for a major part of the solution.
If you modify the charger cables of the electric cars and the wallboxes to support V2G, you need nothing but a fleet of some 10 million electric cars plugged in 23 hours a day in Germany to cover them all.
But the solution is to isolate your buildings, because then, heating becomes something that doesn't cost much (energy and money). You just can stop heating a well isolated building for days without feeling uncomfortable, so no dunkelflaute can make your house go actually cold.
Efficiency again is the solution, and the most cost efficient, too.
Once you think realistically, hydrogen is needed for other situations. It is also needed for backup heating too.
Like I said, the cheapest, not the most efficient, is the desired outcome.
Also, it is likely an example of "begging the question" where you assume you have have solved the problem of BEV production already. It is not obvious it can be solved.
Meanwhile, hydrogen completely solves nearly all problems, from transportation, energy storage, industry, etc. It becomes disingenuous to ignore or deny its utility.
I can't produce BEVs. I have to buy them. I only can charge them at home, but I have to buy the PV Panels.
The problem of producing BEVs has been solved. The mass production in billions has been solved this year through the ramping up of sodium ion batteries: They only use abundant stuff. LFP akkus also use widely available stuff, but sodium and Prussian blue are really abundant.
What doesn't work is H₂ fuel stations.
What you are failing to grasp is that water is functionally a free resource. The combination of renewable energy and water is likely to drive the cost of hydrogen to nearly zero. Conventional batteries are never going to see that happen.
@Hypx @richardknott @denki @Pat @antares Sorry, this is all bullshit. The components of a sodium ion battery are available in such abundancy that they are almost as free as water; actually, the name giving sodium is dissolved in the vast majority of all water you can find on earth (and you need to remove it before you try make hydrogen).
This is a solved problem; the production is ramping up, no component needed is rare.
I'm no longer 9 year old, so your argument doesn't work.
@Hypx @richardknott @denki @Pat @antares The prices of conventional batteries are going down and down and down, the price of fuel cells aren't. The price of hydrogen will never go down to zero, the price of renewable energy will not reach zero. Wind turbines need rare earths for their magnets, PV modules are made of abundant materials, but need area. Hydrogen has a lot of problems that haven't been solved well enough so far, and the thread starter had a number of them.
@forthy42 @richardknott @denki @Pat @antares Sodium-ion batteries don't exist yet. You have no idea what it would actually take. Not to mention that nothing is going to surpass hydrogen in terms of availability.
You're simply being delusion about where the state of batteries are. You remind me of the obsession with cellulosic ethanol. It too was a "solved problem." It also never materialized in quantity.
This implication makes no sense. I also admit that hydropower makes sense for energy storage, but it obviously does not make sense for energy storage in cars.
@denki @richardknott @Pat @antares Hydrogen has a much higher energy density than batteries. And it is chemical storage so it can directly replace the usage scenario of gasoline/diesel. Hence why it is so self-evidently obvious.
Your hydropower argument is purely a strawman and misdirection. You are being willfully dishonest here.
@Hypx @denki @richardknott @Pat @antares We are not in rocket science here. For rockets, the energy density is what matters, because the burned fuel has to accelerate the rest of the fuel. For cars, it doesn't, they don't even fly. Recuperation is needed, nothing more.
Using H₂ as direct replacement for gasoline/diesel is the most wasteful way of using H₂, only the worst idiots promote THAT idea.
@Hypx @denki @richardknott @Pat @antares We stopped our last 3 nuclear power plants here in Germany, and compensated that loss with new wind turbines and PV panels and higher energy efficiecy. Yes, within that first half yearn of 2023 for which we already have a statistics.
It's not enough, but whatever you are smoking (H₂ only explains your high-pitched tune): green H₂ also needs renewable energy producers, more of them, because less efficient.
@forthy42 @denki @richardknott @Pat @antares This is become a elaborate accounting trick with CO₂ emissions. They're doing things like offsets or buying foreign power. Also biomass in coal plants is considered green, but it is not. In reality, Germany has one of the dirtiest grids in the world, and it is get worse, not better.
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