@freemo
Maybe the language is throwing me off. If we're talking about the Measure of the president, it should be measurable.

@SecondJon It is measurable, just not objectively.

@sda
The total metrics for judging a president's ranking in history is how many statements are fact checked and what percent of those are claimed to be false, and how many psychologists diagnose from a distance the president who is not their patient.

Not how I would have chosen how to rank a president, but they are at least both measurable things.

@sda @SecondJon @freemo @snow

I can accept that you don't like Trump, and there can be many rational reasons for it, but my suspension of disbelief is ruined with this type of hyperbole.

He's worse than Bush, who started multi trillion dollar endless wars in the middle East? Worse than Lincoln leading the nation into a war resulting in nearly a million deaths and >2% of the population dead? Worse than Lyndon B. Johnson dragging us into Vietnam?

Because you don't like his tweets?

Bullshit.

@AtlasFreeman

1) Yes, he is worse than all of them.

2) No it has nothing to do with his tweets, in fact your the only person who even mentioned tweets.

@sda @SecondJon @snow

@AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon @freemo @snow Granted Trump's coronavirus response has been downright atrocious and considerably lowered my estimation of him, but it's really hard for him to beat out Dubya or Woodrow Wilson overall.

@ArdanianRight @SecondJon @freemo @sda @snow

People generally aren't good at comparing now and the past in context. Rankings of greatest athletes to play a sport are always dominated by current, or recently retired players

There is an endless list of fair criticisms of Trump, but don't insult my intelligence telling me he's the worst ever

Just 12yrs ago Bush ended his term on a financial collapse after getting us into a >$4T war with over half a million dead and only a chaos to show for it!

@AtlasFreeman

Presidents dont have as much influence as you seem to give them credit for. The economy, up or down, is not very closely correlated with presidents at all, but it is closely correlated with congress's majority.

@ArdanianRight @SecondJon @sda @snow

@AtlasFreeman
And in my news feed right now, proof that it's not single sided.
@ArdanianRight @freemo @sda @snow

@AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon @freemo @snow

Let's go back to the original claim that Trump lies a lot. Here's some stats with attributed quotes. I don't know how to say if he's "worst"... I don't hear a lot of Chester A. Arthur fans out there. I guess he could be doing some amazing things for our country, but this doesn't excuse him from having a loose relationship with the truth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-claims-database/?itid=lk_inline_manual_3

@nothingplanet
I'm as shocked as you are to discover that a politician isn't the epitome of honesty.

I've read through a number of "false and misleading claims" at the link you shared, and it's things like : he's cherry picking numbers, he's generalizing, he's staying numbers that China hasn't yet confirmed, his "almost this number" is rounding up....

When this is what's being reported on, it's hard to take it seriously. However, I do wonder how this compares to how they tracked previous presidents. Do they have a site like this where they documented every time previous presidents rounded up numbers, exaggerated, took things out of context? When judging Trump against all other presidents in history, we'd want an even comparison.

@snow @AtlasFreeman @freemo @sda

@SecondJon @snow @AtlasFreeman @freemo @sda

I’m as shocked as you are to discover that a politician isn’t the epitome of honesty.

I’m not shocked at all.

Let me give you some background thoughts on this. I’m not seeking to compare Trump to anyone.

Going way back to the run up to the election, I remember the first time I heard “MAGA”. I was floored by the messaging in there. If we unpack it, we have a few separate pieces. First, the fact that America had greatness. Second, the fact that we don’t have it anymore. Thirdly, the fact that we should make it great again. I thought this was really on point.

America has some things that we do near best when compared to all other countries. For example, our culture is pretty strong. American music and TV is very popular around the world. That’s a big win. However, we have some things we don’t do to well and I think it bears to give those things proper recognition so we can be proud to be the best in the world.

Now, the president doesn’t have absolute power, but a lot of people make decisions based on what he says and does. To me, for a president to be most effective, he should provide accurate information to the best of his ability so the rest of us can make the best decisions we can.

To pick on one example:

JUN 29 2019 “At least a million [U.S.] jobs are created by the purchases made by Saudi Arabia.”

According to the page he has said something along these lines 10 times. The rebuttal says:

He is both exaggerating the number of jobs that would be created even if all of the $110 billion in purported sales were actually inked — and misleading about where they would be created. Many would end up in Saudi Arabia.

Now, a quote like this has the effect of making us believe we have more jobs than we really do, and it also has the effect of somewhat justifying our partnership with Saudi Arabia, despite some of their questionable un-American practices.

I’d rather see REAL numbers on the impact that they have on our economy. I would assume Trump has advisers at hand that could give him the actual figures. So, the question is, is this a deliberate exaggeration or was he provided bad information? There are a few other quotes regarding Saudi Arabia and jobs, most of which seem to be inaccurate.

Now, if the president either believes or represents that Saudi Arabia provides a million jobs to our economy, and if they do not, that means there is a million American jobs that don’t really exist. This also means that we won’t take any measures to address this.

What I would have preferred to see is Trump recognize that the Saudis don’t provide that many jobs. Maybe he could restructure the deal with the Saudis so the manufacturing must occur in the US, or somehow apply some of the monies gained to job retraining or employment programs.

This was kind of a long-winded example, but my main point is, if the president provides us with information that is not true, whether due to an innocent mistake or not, it has serious downstream effects not only on what the populace believes, but also on some federal policies. If he’s deliberately lying, I don’t have a clean solution, but if he is being fed bad data by his advisers maybe they can add additional staff to make sure he is getting true information.

I believe a nation is the most effective when it believes the most true things. If we all have a true picture of what is going on with jobs, the economy, healthcare care, etc. we can make proper decisions. If we have information that is incorrect, we might be worrying about the wrong things or even hurting ourselves.

I wish that fact-checking page was available for all our current presidential candidates and I hope it is present for whomever is our new president next term. It is important to me that all Americans have the absolute best information available regarding the state of our country.

I agree 100% with Trump on the need to make America great again and I believe the way we get there is by knowing ourselves better and by knowing the enemy better. Let’s recognize where America is best of breed and let’s figure out where we are weak so we can shore up areas that need some help.

@nothingplanet

I originally started this thread by saying Trump was the worst politician in US history. I stand by that. But I also think that most polticians weve seen in the past decade are a close second.. Obama, Bush, they are all a very close second.

So is it common for politicians to lie, yes it is... So what? ?Just because other politicians lie almost as much (and are almost as bad) doesnt really change anything, doesnt make Trump any less horrific.

@snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

@freemo @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon I don't care about other politicians. For all I know Trump is the most truthful we have ever seen.

I have provided a long list of either deliberate lies or innocent mistakes. For us to make America great again, let's cut out the mistakes and give our fellow citizens the best information we can.

If all the other politicians are filthy liars, let us rise up above them instead of using them as an excuse to spread information that is inaccurate.

@nothingplanet

I agree with a lot of that.

I agree that the ideal would be a president who is better in every way than every predecessor, and is accurately perceived as such by every human and always presented perfectly be every media personality. I also don't believe that something is good just because someone else did it first.

But my only question was about the claim that Trump is the Worst President in History, and what that means, if anything. So in this context, it really matters how he compares, not only to Obama and Bush, but to John Quincy Adams and Franklin Pierce and Millard Fillmore. Has Trump been less honest or more divisive than Polk? What about Garfield? I have no idea, so I try to not make that kind of claim. I'm not claiming anyone at the WORST IN ALL HISTORY or the BEST OF ALL TIME, but seeking clarity about those who make those universal claims to see what's supporting them.

I think it tends to mean : I don't like him.

@snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @freemo

@SecondJon

Well as you say its not only very complex but would require a lot of time and detail going through each president one by one and picking out the why and how of each president and how they ranked. Far too much for me to make the case here.

Which is why i say even though the measures individually might be objective the final conclusion is subjective as there is no single objective measure but rather the subjective evaluation of many objective measures.

So youll just have to accept that is my opinion and then draw your own conclusions.

@nothingplanet @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda

@freemo
I'm not really trying to be dismissive. Maybe I'm doing that without trying... I was really wondering if there was any standard metric anyone used. I think there's a thousand ways to slice and dice things that are and aren't measurable and we all have our own perspective on it.

@nothingplanet @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda

@SecondJon

Not any one measure, but there are lots and lots of different measures.Some of those measures, such as honesty, was already shared.

@nothingplanet @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda

@SecondJon @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @freemo

But my only question was about the claim that Trump is the Worst President in History, and what that means, if anything.

I believe we could talk about him in terms of certain metrics. But to just say worst, worst what? For instance, we can say

Under President Trump, job openings outnumber the unemployed for the first time on record.

That’s true. But we can also say he has the worst hair. Maybe that’s true or not, who knows. If you dislike him, give us something concrete and we can talk about it. Just saying “so and so is the worst” is just complaining.

@nothingplanet

There is a big difference between "things that happen to be happening in the world when Trump is president" ... and things Trump actually has achieved.

The economy and unemployment is a great example of that. Statistically speaking there is **very** low correlation between a presidents policies and the economy. However there is a very **high** correlation between the majority policy/party in congress and the economy.

For me when judging a president it is important to make sure I recognize that not everything that happens when Trump is president is his fault, that includes the bad and the good.

This brings me back to why I dont have a formal objective measure for you though. Part of determining what a president is or is not responsible for is itself nuanced and partly a matter of opinion (even if in my case that opinion is mostly driven by statistics, as i just mentioned)

@snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

@freemo @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

Aha! But we had a certain thing to talk about. That is a great point that measures that don’t correlate with presidents can’t be considered as seriously as ones that do. Well, I guess that’s part of the reason why the Trump quotes are great. They are right from the man himself. You can look at them and some of them are provably false. The question remains: is it due to ignorance or malice?

@nothingplanet

I dont think its ignorance or malice. He talks like he he is just mentally slow. I just mostly see him as the special needs president.

The only reason he hasnt caused more actual damage is because most of the senate I think recognizes that and he has a hard time actually getting anything done, so his horrible ideas never get much steam.

@snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

@freemo @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

He talks like he he is just mentally slow.

Have you ever noticed how he repeats words?

I think recognizes that and he has a hard time actually getting anything done, so his horrible ideas never get much steam.

Let’s talk about one of his horrible ideas. What’s your best example?

@nothingplanet

Hist suggestion to use planes to put ut the notre dame fire by dumping water on it is an example of one of the many stupid ones. Even the slightest bit of common sense would tell you why we dont, because the blast of water would collapse the structure. Obviously no one ran with his idea because everyone knew how stupid it was the second he uttered it.

There is a long list of examples like that, most things the man utters in fact wind up being too idiotic for anyone to take serious, let alone implement.

@snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

@freemo @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

Haha! See, now that’s something that really is pretty foolish. I guess you could say it was positive that he was tossing out solutions, even though it was a little ham-fisted.

Actually, now that I think about this, I have a different question for you. That Tweet probably didn’t really hurt anything, since I doubt fire experts would even listen to him. What do you think is the worst thing he said that had some kind of really bad effect?

@nothingplanet

Im not sure he has very much effect on things in general, no one ever takes him seriously enough for that. Most of the harm he has done manifests in nothing getting done at all because he keeps pushing idiotic ideas that no one would support. The few areas he can do anything at all tend to be the places where he doesnt need approval. Usually all that does is stir up drama.

He is the worst president much like a half-drunk monkey would be.. No one would take the monkey (or trump) very seriously, nothing would get done, most anything they touch would just wind up smeared with shit, but people still know its a monkey and as such will mostly just lock it in a room and feed it bananas until it stops starting trouble.

@snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

@freemo @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

He is the worst president much like a half-drunk monkey would be.. No one would take the monkey (or trump) very seriously, nothing would get done, most anything they touch would just wind up smeared with shit, but people still know its a monkey and as such will mostly just lock it in a room and feed it bananas until it stops starting trouble.

I don’t find this to be substantial criticism. If this is how you are arguing someone should vote Democrat it would not be an effective approach.

@nothingplanet

I dont recall saying anything about who people should vote, least of all for the democrats.

I said Trump was the worst president we ever had... I also said Obama was a close second to that. What makes you think I believe any of the democratic candidates are actually better than Trump?

@snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

@freemo @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

Good point. Well, I assume Trump’s running again, so who do you think we should all vote for?

@freemo @snow @AtlasFreeman @sda @SecondJon

I said Trump was the worst president we ever had… I also said Obama was a close second to that.

I’d say Grant was the worst president we ever had, Hoover was a close second to that.

@SecondJon

Well yes and no. Those factors are part of the subjective measure of who is "worse", which of course calls on many factors including objective measures such as those.

But largely a president doesnt have a very strong influence on those factors despite popular beleive. The congress has a far more significant effect in that regard.

As such there is far too much nuance than to simply look at measures like that and naively attribute them to the president.

@sda