Over the years I have had hundreds of left-wing people block me for sincerely asking for the facts in a situation, a situation I agree with them on... I cant recall a right-winger ever doing that (not that they dont have a ton of other issues).

As someone who has and still does lean left I have to say every day i become more and more ashamed of the way "my side" behaves... its depressing to see.

@freemo That's why one should generally not say "i am left", it's worth to figure out what the actually relevant term is to avoid wrong associations. I fail on this too, from time to time.

*takes a breath*

I'm for universal unalienable human rights and for working together to minimize suffering.

@admitsWrongIfProven

Not all of them say they are left explicitly, but it is quite obvious.

@freemo On second thought, maybe we can express this more along the lines of "the more aligned with sides, the more gatekeeping and demanding conformity without explanation".

Reject sides. Embrace content.

@admitsWrongIfProven Yes that is true, and being polarized is never a good idea. But in this case im pointing out thee difference between the sides and how they manifest.

Blocking people for fact seeking and asking questions to understand is very much a uniquely left thing.

@freemo Hmm, who associates with authority (right) is usually who sends hateful messages, picures of dead people, requests for k-y-s, symbols associated with Nazis. Seen all of those.

Thus: i would like to re-frame that blocking is a good thing. Block me anytime before you do one of those.

@admitsWrongIfProven Authority isnt right, thats up.... right is conservatism (prefering traditional values), not authoritarianism.

@freemo I have a problem with "conservative", i think it's a lie.
Based on conserving what was, it cannot accurately express what those people are doing.

What i do find common to the people we talk about is a disposition to top-down decision making (Führer Principle, lol, dict.cc actually translates it like that). Thus i used authoritarian.

So either "conservative" means to keep power inside a circle that common people cannot get into (conserving class structure) or it's an outright lie. I guess conserving class structures could be sugarcoated as prefering traditional values, i just refuse to use "conservative" here.

@admitsWrongIfProven I have a very different take.

While I know publicly the definition of left and right is largely "old fashioned vs new" I find in practice thatisnt too useful or even accurate. For me I define left vs right as values that focus on the individual rights above the rights of the group, and with the left caring more about the collective good even if that sacrafices individual freedom/rights.

We see this in almost all aspects, taxes (the left is more ont he side of evening out wealth and redistribution), immigration (caring more about the individuals here now than the collective good of those in need around the world), etc

@freemo Hmm, i think i see where you're coming from.

Would be cautious though, as it would lead to wrong results if applied to asian cultures.

Guess we need to allow for more diverse categories instead of smushing much into one... which i am fine with. Seeing enough complexity is a must have to understand.

@admitsWrongIfProven Can you give an example where the result is wrong in asian countries? They would be considered old fashioned, and thus conservative, but in terms of practice many of them are really left wing countries as they are communistic with very significant social welfare programs and laws which prefer the "greater good" over indivdual rights (like making tattoos illegal in certain spaces).

So I'd argue they are legitimate extreme left wing in nature despite being old fashioned and in fact a great example of how my definition is more useful and applicable.

@freemo I'd say it is more complicated than that. You know the meaning of "ask culture"?

A strong emphasis on what is good for the group, ask culture and different structures from before could change a lot.

I'm not saying i have a clear picture, just see lots of little hints about stuff working out differently if we look at another culture.

So sorry, your ask for a clear example is a legit question, but i cannot give you one on the spot.

@admitsWrongIfProven

Perhaps you cant think of one because your assertion was wrong? If we cant articulate a stance more often than not its because your stance was not founded on logic or reality.. in the case where its just an inability to express it,then its worth investing the time to try and come back when you can. Because if you cant explain it you should probably chance it.

@freemo Nah, it's just a new thing to think along those lines with respect to culture. Not thinking about that often, so i don't have prepared statements - call me an unsafe database usage!

As i said your ask was legit, and now i think this topic needs to rest a bit for my unconscious to do its thing.

@admitsWrongIfProven But you drew a conclusion despite admittidly having not given it much thought... I hope you see the problem in that.

But yes you should think it over and come to a clarity of thought on it and hopefully be willing to change your mind as you do (if it is warranted)

@freemo I think you misinterpret what i do. I do not draw a conclusion, i remain doubtful and consider the matter not settled.

Sorry, can't provide a clear end here. If this was a work thing where we needed a decision, we'd have to make a deadline and push it to an actual conclusion until then. Since we are not, we can be more relaxed, right?

@admitsWrongIfProven

its not what "you do" its what all humans do and have to fight against... most people go in with their mind made up whether they know it or not... you and I are no different.

@freemo Sorry, don't understand. This is nothing that needs a decision right now, i can not make up my mind if i want to.

Is the concept of "This topic currently has no clear answer" so alien? If we were forced to decide something now, we'd obviously go with your view, but we are not...