I just did a schematic mind-map of the latest evidence about the existence of God.

Brought to you by some random Jehovah's witnesses who stopped me in the street. Pretty strong argument.

Being is so relaxing.

@freemo I talked with them for around 30 minutes. They couldn't get out of the circularity of the argument, I just gave up =D

@arteteco I dont consider myself atheist personally (or any other religion for that matter, or even agnostic). But I do insist that if a person believes something they can provide a well thought out interpretation of whatever that may be.

@freemo Well, 'well thought' is not enough for me, as logic can only get you that far. I also need evidence.

In any case, I always consider that I may be wrong, so when I am approached by religious people I give them a chance and I ask them why do they believe in it. Good display of classical fallacies, so far.

@arteteco There is a difference between what I can accept in others and what I accept for my own beleifs.

What is true does not frequently line up with what we have evidence for, something can be true and still be its nature be unfalsifiable such that no evidence could ever be generated to show that it is true.

There is also a distinction between personal evidence and reproducible evidence. A person can witness evidence of something that is entirely valid for they themselves to believe, even if they can't reproduce it for others (and thus it is perfectly acceptable for other people to be skeptical of it).

I try to consider all of this when I engage on the topic of religion.

@freemo Can you make me an example of something that is true but unfalsifiable at the same time? Of course, not personal/subjective truth like "I like ice cream".

I am quite aware of the troubles science has with the falsification of many hypothesis, but I don't want to get too sidetracked here.

Personal evidence is a good starting point, but doesn't get you far. As you say, it is just healthy for others not to believe you, and the person who experienced it should be wary of it too. We are easily tricked by the simplest optical illusions or cognitive biases.

I try to approach religious with an open mind, but frankly I never heard a valid argument which was beyond the "I believe it without evidence because I want to", which is fair enough, but still quite a dangerous ground as you may be basing your ethics on it.

@arteteco I can not give you an example of something that is both true and unfalsifiable, not if your criteria for true is something you can test against (provide evidence for). But just because it is impossible to prove something to be true, does not mean it isnt.

Take the general idea of a god, not related to any one religion. But the nature of god (As someone or something that is all powerful) it is unfalsifiable since any god figure that had that level of power could easily change all the evidence in the universe to whatever he wants.

So if logically reasoning about if a god were to exist the conclusion must be that unless god wants there to be evidence, there will be none.

Now I'm not saying that is a good enough reason to believe in god, but it does provide you an example and explanation as to why something could be true and unfalsifiable.

@freemo @arteteco an unfalsifiable truth is indistinguishable from a falsity.

@solanaceae @arteteco If I were a scientist and I studied endangered and extinct animals. Naturally if I were a reasonable person I'd beleive the dodo to be extinct.

If one day one landed on my boat out at sea all alone, and I inspected that bird, and with my expert knowledge I knew it to be the dodo. Then I turn my back and the bird flys off before I could put it in the cage. Well I just experienced personal evidence that the dodo existed still.

Even if i could never find another dodo bird in the wild and could in no way prove to the greater community that the dodo still exists, I would still be perfectly reasonable to use my personal evidence to conclude that it does.

It would further more be reasonable for me to spend my life trying to find evidence of the dodo bird, even if i never find any evidence again.

I see no problem with people who respond similarly to their personal evidence around god. Whether they are correct or not in their assertions; likewise it deserves skepticism from people who have not witnessed the evidence or are personally unable to reproduce it.

@freemo

God is way more unlikely to exist than a dodo, and most of the 'proofs' brought forward in history about god have one after the other been correctly refused.

I have some problems with irrational thinking in general as people base their ethics on it, bringing to illegal abortions, killing homosexual people, wars, believing that "nature was created for us", and more.

That wouldn't happen with the dodo =D

In any case, if they have evidence I'll look at it =)

@solanaceae

Follow

@arteteco @solanaceae I dont see it as inherently irrational thinking. Obviously a lot of times the logic around a god is very irrational, other times it is very rational. It seems to depend on a case by case basis.

Sign in to participate in the conversation
QOTO Mastodon

Welcome to the QOTO instance

QOTO: Question Others, Teach Others

A Mastodon instance for scholars in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) and all yearning to learn.

A free speech space. No censorship here.
We do not silence or block any instances.


Unique Features
  • Inline math Latex support - Use \ ( and \ ) for inline LaTeX, and \ [ and \ ] for display mode.
  • 65,535 character limit for toots (usually 500)
  • 65,535 character limit for profile bio (usually 160)
  • Full text searches - usually you can only search hashtags and usernames
  • Halcyon / Twitter clone front-end - Want the interface to look exactly like the Twitter interface? After you signed up just go here to login: https://halcyon.qoto.org.
  • PeerTube - We host our own PeerTube server with open registration for up to 100MB, but all of our active users get unlimited quotas. Sign up here: https://video.qoto.org.
  • Professionally hosted with nightly backups
  • light modern theme with full width columns (not fixed)
  • Several extra themes - including mastodon default and mastodon default with full width columns (not fixed)

Message to New Members

Welcome to the Qoto Mastodon instance, its like twitter but better!

Please don't hesitate to Direct Message me or tag me in Toots (what we call tweets here) if you have any questions or even if you just want to chat.

If you are new to Mastodon you may want to check out this official getting started guide: https://github.com/tootsuite/documentation/blob/master/Using-Mastodon/User-guide.md

We are a free speech, no censorship zone. Feel free to talk about whatever you want, say whatever you want, as long as it is legal you wont ever get banned from the server. With that said we do have a few rules: No spam, and no using multiple accounts to circumvent personal bans.

This server isnt a typical mastodon server either. I have personally modified the code on this server to give it several unique features you wont find on other servers.

If you are new to Mastodon here is some useful info.

First off, if your coming from Twitter and you'd prefer an interface that looks exactly like twitter, then just go here and login with your Qoto credential: https://halcyon.qoto.org/ No need to create an account there, your account on this server will work just fine. Just enter your username in the following format @[username]@qoto.org so for me it would be @freemo But personally I think our default skin here is way better.

Basically Mastodon is a decentralized twitter. That means anyone can run a server (like Qoto) that people can sign up to and use just like twitter. The unique part is how the servers talk to each other.

If you want to tag someone on the same server as you then you can just do @user however if you want to specify someone on a different server you can do @user@server. If someone follows you or mentions you on any server on the internet you'll get notified right here. So my full tag is @freemo@qoto.org.

So now a bit about the timelines, there are three (unlike twitter there is just one): Home, Local, Federated.

The Home timeline is just like what you'd expect on twitter, that is, everyone you are following.

The local timeline is any post made by anyone on your local server.

The federated timeline is what is cool. It combines the timeline of everyone on the server into one. This way you can see the posts of everyone that is followed by anyone on the server (assuming the post is public). So this timeline is a close representation of everyone on the internet who has Mastadon (though not really). Moreover we have a bot here that goes around and federates with everyone it can find, so our Federated Feed is rather robust covering thousands of instances.

Only other thing that is unique is listed vs unlisted posts. You have normal privacy settings like on twitter but you also can set a post to be listed or unlisted. If it is listed it acts just as i described. If it is unlisted then it acts just as a normal tweet would but it doesnt show up on local or federated timelines anywhere.

Also this goes without saying, but don't be racist, sexist, hateful, and don't harass people. Its a pretty shitty thing to do, don't be shitty!

The following is the list of QOTO administrators/moderators.
  • @freemo@qoto.org
  • @absolutus@qoto.org
  • @arteteco@qoto.org
  • @Surasanji@qoto.org
  • @hashtaggrammar@qoto.org
Note: The account @QOTO@qoto.org listed as the administrator is NOT an actively monitored account. It was selected so as not to show favoritism among our moderator group, we are a democracy and even our administrators and moderators are held to the same high standards of decency as the rest of the community.

***We will never advertise on QOTO or sell your information to third-parties***