I just did a schematic mind-map of the latest evidence about the existence of God.

Brought to you by some random Jehovah's witnesses who stopped me in the street. Pretty strong argument.

Being is so relaxing.

@freemo I talked with them for around 30 minutes. They couldn't get out of the circularity of the argument, I just gave up =D

@arteteco I dont consider myself atheist personally (or any other religion for that matter, or even agnostic). But I do insist that if a person believes something they can provide a well thought out interpretation of whatever that may be.

@freemo Well, 'well thought' is not enough for me, as logic can only get you that far. I also need evidence.

In any case, I always consider that I may be wrong, so when I am approached by religious people I give them a chance and I ask them why do they believe in it. Good display of classical fallacies, so far.

@arteteco There is a difference between what I can accept in others and what I accept for my own beleifs.

What is true does not frequently line up with what we have evidence for, something can be true and still be its nature be unfalsifiable such that no evidence could ever be generated to show that it is true.

There is also a distinction between personal evidence and reproducible evidence. A person can witness evidence of something that is entirely valid for they themselves to believe, even if they can't reproduce it for others (and thus it is perfectly acceptable for other people to be skeptical of it).

I try to consider all of this when I engage on the topic of religion.

@freemo Can you make me an example of something that is true but unfalsifiable at the same time? Of course, not personal/subjective truth like "I like ice cream".

I am quite aware of the troubles science has with the falsification of many hypothesis, but I don't want to get too sidetracked here.

Personal evidence is a good starting point, but doesn't get you far. As you say, it is just healthy for others not to believe you, and the person who experienced it should be wary of it too. We are easily tricked by the simplest optical illusions or cognitive biases.

I try to approach religious with an open mind, but frankly I never heard a valid argument which was beyond the "I believe it without evidence because I want to", which is fair enough, but still quite a dangerous ground as you may be basing your ethics on it.

@arteteco I can not give you an example of something that is both true and unfalsifiable, not if your criteria for true is something you can test against (provide evidence for). But just because it is impossible to prove something to be true, does not mean it isnt.

Take the general idea of a god, not related to any one religion. But the nature of god (As someone or something that is all powerful) it is unfalsifiable since any god figure that had that level of power could easily change all the evidence in the universe to whatever he wants.

So if logically reasoning about if a god were to exist the conclusion must be that unless god wants there to be evidence, there will be none.

Now I'm not saying that is a good enough reason to believe in god, but it does provide you an example and explanation as to why something could be true and unfalsifiable.

@freemo @arteteco an unfalsifiable truth is indistinguishable from a falsity.

@solanaceae @arteteco If I were a scientist and I studied endangered and extinct animals. Naturally if I were a reasonable person I'd beleive the dodo to be extinct.

If one day one landed on my boat out at sea all alone, and I inspected that bird, and with my expert knowledge I knew it to be the dodo. Then I turn my back and the bird flys off before I could put it in the cage. Well I just experienced personal evidence that the dodo existed still.

Even if i could never find another dodo bird in the wild and could in no way prove to the greater community that the dodo still exists, I would still be perfectly reasonable to use my personal evidence to conclude that it does.

It would further more be reasonable for me to spend my life trying to find evidence of the dodo bird, even if i never find any evidence again.

I see no problem with people who respond similarly to their personal evidence around god. Whether they are correct or not in their assertions; likewise it deserves skepticism from people who have not witnessed the evidence or are personally unable to reproduce it.


God is way more unlikely to exist than a dodo, and most of the 'proofs' brought forward in history about god have one after the other been correctly refused.

I have some problems with irrational thinking in general as people base their ethics on it, bringing to illegal abortions, killing homosexual people, wars, believing that "nature was created for us", and more.

That wouldn't happen with the dodo =D

In any case, if they have evidence I'll look at it =)



@arteteco @solanaceae I dont see it as inherently irrational thinking. Obviously a lot of times the logic around a god is very irrational, other times it is very rational. It seems to depend on a case by case basis.

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