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We have this tendency to not see mental health as a disease. so for most of us we never realize these sorts of connections. But it is vital we change how we look at these things for everyone's sake.
@nerthos Sure we could. We could also put people witht he flu in prison then while they are there force them to take the treatment we want.
The notion that they "wont do it on their own" is nonsense though. Like with any disease some people get better after many attempts of treatment, some never do. Most drug addicts I know have been voluntarily in and out of rehab more times than I can count, they very clearly do treat it on their own, those treatments just also tend to fail. It doesnt help that treatment is often tens of thousands of dollars they dont have and health insurance is unlike to cure.
Here is an idea, instead of wasting an insane amount of money on sticking them in prison with worse results, why not just actually provide for them good affordable rehab on their own.
The war on drugs is an ineffective, massive waste of money because the guns are aimed at the links of the chain that can protect themselves. If you try to go for a druglord without cutting off its source of money the druglord will just throw some money at a judge or friend in the police and get out free. Addicts don't have such resources, and without addicts to buy, druglords don't have the money to escape prosecution either.
In any siege the goal is to weaken the defender through denial of basic resources.
@nerthos the idea that someone needs punishment simply because something is illegal is absurdity at its finest. If you want to make the argument that someone should be put in jail for something arguing ont he basis of legality is a circular argument. You have to show that it is justified for the act to be illegal in the first place.
Simply put, as far as im concerned the idea of outlawing a persons right to decide what can or can not go into their own body is the epitome of bad law, unjust law, in every regard.
I've seen both sorts of systems at play. I've seen shitholes like america where they outlaw drugs and everyone suffers for it. I've seen other countries like the netherlands where despite what the technical law may be no one is ever arrested for it, and that waste of money is directed towards excellent affordable drug rehab programs.
Guess what, I have yet to meet a single person in the netherlands with a heroin addiction and I can think of more people than i could count on both hands who have it in america.
Funny how that works, one actually solves a problem, the other wastes money and doesnt. But yea lets hold onto the idea of sticking to failed policy just because it was already illegal. Thats like saying we have to stick to failed policy because failed policy already exists and they knew it.
@nerthos@shitposter.club
@nerthos
that makes no sense. If its legal they can keep their business in any sense. They would be beholden to actual good business practices. Meaning they can't sell on a street, cant import the drugs, cant make it out a bath tub. You have taxes, regulations, age limits, and limits on who how and why you can sell.
They would have to go out of business in their current form and be replaced with clean legal alternatives with whatever regulatory warnings or procedures you want.
In an ideal world I'd say all drugs should be legal and provided via regulated production from stores. However the stipulation is if you go in and buy it you must first have a free session with a medical professional who would provide you warnings, advice on how to be safe, and strongly encourage you to seek free rehab.
since the vast majority of addicts who cant keep their life in order actively seek out help and rehab its reasonable to think this would have a huge impact. In fact when we look at other countries that take the rehabilitation approach the results have been amazing.
If they're illegal and unsafe, at least you can actively fight them. Attack producers, dealers and users, confiscate their belongings, use that money to rehabilitate captured users. That way you have both effective rehabilitation and eventually no drug market at all.
@nerthos
Except that isnt how it works. It only works that way if you pretend in your head thats how reality works. Most people who know anyone with a legitimate drug problem (cant function in society due to their drugs) know the vast majority are NOT trying to cure themselves because of fear of prison. Most want help because they suffer and dont want to suffer.
Its like suggesting people witht he flu would never never get better unless we make the flu illegal cause everyone would just be comfortable having it.
@nerthos
Yup, in that regard i want the same. Which is what makes it curious you seem just as content with lumping weed and lsd into the category.. No one is stabbing anyone over lsd or weed. In fact your FAR more likely to have that be the result from alcohol. But somehow i doubt your going to be just as head strong on getting alcohol outlawed.
@nerthos
Funny how that standard is so far off.. Alcohol you only care if people are completely wasted, and in the streets. But weed even if you just smoke a bit to sleep at night in the privacy of your own home your fine with jail time... Clearly not a position brought about through objective consideration.
I'm a bit more tolerant of alcohol, though not to the point of seeing people wasted in public, just because of the enormous importance of alcoholic beverages in human culture and history. I would prefer no one drinks to the point of being severely inebriated though.
@nerthos
that importance and prevelance in human culture applies just as much to weed as it does to alcohol. It has been around, and used across many cultures for at least 10,000 years with more than enough artifacts to back that up.
I do agree with you that generally drugs shouldnt be used. I never touch alcohol, i have no issue with smoking weed from time to time however.
I would MUCH rather seed a "coffeeshop" where people smoke weed in a public setting than a bar where people get drunk however. I rarely drink, I rarely go to bars. but as long as you arent hurting anyone feel free to do whatever you please.
I dislike weed as much for the effects it has as for the culture associated with it.
@nerthos
I'll take a person on a moderate quantity of weed over a person on a moderate quantity of alcohol anyday. Even if they arent being reckless the second your more than a drink or two in you become stupid, unable to process information well, pretty much all the typical symptoms of intentional poisoning without much good to it.
Weed, most of all that happens is people laugh a little easier. Might start day dreaming a bit at worst.
though i suspect you may not have spent much time in such a place. Its usually filled with old ladies, kids, and everything in between. For the most part youd be unable to tell drugs were involved in any sense of the word.
@nerthos
People who shoot up heroin dont willingly do it either. Usually the people who do are either 1) already severely mentally ill and suffering from other issues they are trying to self medicate or 2)got to where they were medicating physical illness like pain medication or anxiety, usually starting from legally prescribed drugs.
Very few people just wake up one day with a great life and little issue and just go "ya know what, today i think ill try some heroin"
I'm not against people using cannabis oil to treat chronic pain, or people drinking a glass of wine with their beef, or drinking a cup of coffee in the morning because they like the taste and warm feeling.
I'm against people getting stoned, I'm against people getting drunk to the point they can't stand, I'm against people drinking 15 cups of coffee and being as twitchy as a jumping spider.
All of those things, as I mentioned before, undermine human dignity. I believe in the possibility of an elegant, distinguished, clean species that doesn't rely on mind-altering substances.
@nerthos
I think it speaks more to your own short coming that you need the people around you to behave like you in order for you to enjoy yourself.
Take the netherlands as an example. Weed is legal and plenty of coffee shops where people smoke. Yet the vast majority of dutch people do not smoke weed and generally see it as something to be avoided. But they arent in any way bothered by such stores. They pass them, never give it a second thought and are generally uneffected by the people who go there. Most of the time they will have some friends who smoke, some who dont and no one gives a shit because it really doent matter or have much impact on them.
There is a reason i have so much respect for the dutch. I think this exemplifies maturity.
I'm not going to stop talking with someone becuase they have beer too often, but I won't consider them as responsible and worthy of praise as someone who doesn't.
@nerthos
For some it is a vice, and yes you should try to overcome it if it is. then again I dont know anyone without some vices so you must not think very many people are equals then if anyone with a vice isnt.
With that said most people who smoke weed dont have any "vices". They smoke for the same reason someone might drink a cup of tea, or watch an entertaining TV show. specifically, because it is an enjoyable relaxing expiernce with no negative side effects.
Neither of them sought out help to escape.
@miya
I had the flu once and was hallucinating. I remember I could swear i had really really tiny hands for a hot minute there.
But yea, every thought you have, ever activity you do, every food you eat, literally every time a neuron fires you are altering your brain chemistry. through some means. Experiencing anything is an alteration in your brain chemistry.
But there are adaptions for dealing with alcohol, this is most evident when contrasting with populations that don't have them such as aboriginals, native americans and east asians. And there are adaptions for dealing with smoke (that may be more for dealing with cooking food and eating the cooked food)
