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We have this tendency to not see mental health as a disease. so for most of us we never realize these sorts of connections. But it is vital we change how we look at these things for everyone's sake.
@nerthos Sure we could. We could also put people witht he flu in prison then while they are there force them to take the treatment we want.
The notion that they "wont do it on their own" is nonsense though. Like with any disease some people get better after many attempts of treatment, some never do. Most drug addicts I know have been voluntarily in and out of rehab more times than I can count, they very clearly do treat it on their own, those treatments just also tend to fail. It doesnt help that treatment is often tens of thousands of dollars they dont have and health insurance is unlike to cure.
Here is an idea, instead of wasting an insane amount of money on sticking them in prison with worse results, why not just actually provide for them good affordable rehab on their own.
The war on drugs is an ineffective, massive waste of money because the guns are aimed at the links of the chain that can protect themselves. If you try to go for a druglord without cutting off its source of money the druglord will just throw some money at a judge or friend in the police and get out free. Addicts don't have such resources, and without addicts to buy, druglords don't have the money to escape prosecution either.
In any siege the goal is to weaken the defender through denial of basic resources.
@nerthos the idea that someone needs punishment simply because something is illegal is absurdity at its finest. If you want to make the argument that someone should be put in jail for something arguing ont he basis of legality is a circular argument. You have to show that it is justified for the act to be illegal in the first place.
Simply put, as far as im concerned the idea of outlawing a persons right to decide what can or can not go into their own body is the epitome of bad law, unjust law, in every regard.
I've seen both sorts of systems at play. I've seen shitholes like america where they outlaw drugs and everyone suffers for it. I've seen other countries like the netherlands where despite what the technical law may be no one is ever arrested for it, and that waste of money is directed towards excellent affordable drug rehab programs.
Guess what, I have yet to meet a single person in the netherlands with a heroin addiction and I can think of more people than i could count on both hands who have it in america.
Funny how that works, one actually solves a problem, the other wastes money and doesnt. But yea lets hold onto the idea of sticking to failed policy just because it was already illegal. Thats like saying we have to stick to failed policy because failed policy already exists and they knew it.
@nerthos
that makes no sense. If its legal they can keep their business in any sense. They would be beholden to actual good business practices. Meaning they can't sell on a street, cant import the drugs, cant make it out a bath tub. You have taxes, regulations, age limits, and limits on who how and why you can sell.
They would have to go out of business in their current form and be replaced with clean legal alternatives with whatever regulatory warnings or procedures you want.
In an ideal world I'd say all drugs should be legal and provided via regulated production from stores. However the stipulation is if you go in and buy it you must first have a free session with a medical professional who would provide you warnings, advice on how to be safe, and strongly encourage you to seek free rehab.
since the vast majority of addicts who cant keep their life in order actively seek out help and rehab its reasonable to think this would have a huge impact. In fact when we look at other countries that take the rehabilitation approach the results have been amazing.
If they're illegal and unsafe, at least you can actively fight them. Attack producers, dealers and users, confiscate their belongings, use that money to rehabilitate captured users. That way you have both effective rehabilitation and eventually no drug market at all.
@nerthos
Except that isnt how it works. It only works that way if you pretend in your head thats how reality works. Most people who know anyone with a legitimate drug problem (cant function in society due to their drugs) know the vast majority are NOT trying to cure themselves because of fear of prison. Most want help because they suffer and dont want to suffer.
Its like suggesting people witht he flu would never never get better unless we make the flu illegal cause everyone would just be comfortable having it.
@nerthos
People who shoot up heroin dont willingly do it either. Usually the people who do are either 1) already severely mentally ill and suffering from other issues they are trying to self medicate or 2)got to where they were medicating physical illness like pain medication or anxiety, usually starting from legally prescribed drugs.
Very few people just wake up one day with a great life and little issue and just go "ya know what, today i think ill try some heroin"
@nerthos
I think it speaks more to your own short coming that you need the people around you to behave like you in order for you to enjoy yourself.
Take the netherlands as an example. Weed is legal and plenty of coffee shops where people smoke. Yet the vast majority of dutch people do not smoke weed and generally see it as something to be avoided. But they arent in any way bothered by such stores. They pass them, never give it a second thought and are generally uneffected by the people who go there. Most of the time they will have some friends who smoke, some who dont and no one gives a shit because it really doent matter or have much impact on them.
There is a reason i have so much respect for the dutch. I think this exemplifies maturity.
I'm not going to stop talking with someone becuase they have beer too often, but I won't consider them as responsible and worthy of praise as someone who doesn't.
@nerthos
For some it is a vice, and yes you should try to overcome it if it is. then again I dont know anyone without some vices so you must not think very many people are equals then if anyone with a vice isnt.
With that said most people who smoke weed dont have any "vices". They smoke for the same reason someone might drink a cup of tea, or watch an entertaining TV show. specifically, because it is an enjoyable relaxing expiernce with no negative side effects.
@nerthos
enjoying yourself through a cup of tea, weed, or a tv show, or anything external to yourself is not "reliance".. reliance implies you NEED it to enjoy yourself. No one NEEDS weed to enjoy themselves. It is just one way in which they do. Remove the obvious mistake of "reliance" from your statement and it no longer makes any sense.
Neither of them sought out help to escape.
@ayy He may have ruined his life and he may have wasted more time than he needed by getting stoned. I know people like that too. I also know people who did the exact same thing by watching tv all day, playing video games, or any number of things.
I wouldnt say it was accurate that the smoking of weed is what ruined his life anymore so than anything else youd use to take up your idle time when you should be off being productive.
@miya
I had the flu once and was hallucinating. I remember I could swear i had really really tiny hands for a hot minute there.
But yea, every thought you have, ever activity you do, every food you eat, literally every time a neuron fires you are altering your brain chemistry. through some means. Experiencing anything is an alteration in your brain chemistry.
But there are adaptions for dealing with alcohol, this is most evident when contrasting with populations that don't have them such as aboriginals, native americans and east asians. And there are adaptions for dealing with smoke (that may be more for dealing with cooking food and eating the cooked food)
@ayy
While that is true of some drugs, particularly those that are associated with clear dysfunction (like heroin), there is no basis to say that for some others. In fact the very idea of what is a drug or what is not is generally a completely arbitrary distinction. Drugs, like food occur in nature, are consumed by humans, have been part of our evolution for time immemorial,and impact our brain chemistry.
the vast majority of things we call "drugs" are no more harmful than a multivitamin. In fact there are many multivitamins that have and do cause significaintly more harm than things we call drugs. For example if you were to compare vitamin K to say weed, it is clear vitamin K has taken far more lives than weed.
@ayy
Im not saying all drugs are harmless mind you. I'm just saying any sweeping statement you can make about "drugs" is going to be false out of the gate since it is such an arbitrary distinction.
I would agree a majority of things we think of when we talk about illegal drugs obviously cant be consumed unchecked, then again you shouldnt induldge in anything unchecked. But many of those drugs also have little to no addictive qualities and some have very few negative side effects too. we simply need to be specific in these discussions to be useful.
I'm not against people using cannabis oil to treat chronic pain, or people drinking a glass of wine with their beef, or drinking a cup of coffee in the morning because they like the taste and warm feeling.
I'm against people getting stoned, I'm against people getting drunk to the point they can't stand, I'm against people drinking 15 cups of coffee and being as twitchy as a jumping spider.
All of those things, as I mentioned before, undermine human dignity. I believe in the possibility of an elegant, distinguished, clean species that doesn't rely on mind-altering substances.