@freemo
I am not against with rights of having guns, but I think the numbers of mass shooting in a year will rise.

@snow Yes, but the number of overall murders and violent crimes will go down. So will be a good thing overall.

Let me try to use an analogy to help you realize why your logic is self-defeating. The following statement is technically true yet misleading for the same reason as your own:

"After people started receiving vaccines the number of vaccine related deaths increased!"

The reason it is deceiving is that despite being true it ignores the fact that it is cherry picked and that the real statistic we care about is overall death and not vaccine related. The number of deaths from vaccines will be far less than the number of people saved by vaccines, much like with guns.

@freemo @snow How are the numbers of overall murders and violent crimes going down when you allow for guns? Would you think that allowing for guns now in Utrecht will lead to murders and violent crimes going down?

Also, a faulty comparison between vaccines and guns, yes statistically vaccine related deaths went up when introduced, but every vaccine preventable death went down and has been going down since. Guns never have a positive impact as they are not designed to do so.

@ff0000

The actual statistics directly contradict your claims and support my own.

The way we data scientists analyze situations like this is very specific. We look at countries where guns are legal and there is a significant legal change banning guns, then we look at the overall homicide rate or violent crime rate and see if it spikes up or down. We do this across many countries and see if there is a trend.

We also do the converse where we look at relaxed restrictions.

The cause-effect here is very strong, we almost always with only a few exceptions see a huge spike in homicide rates and violent crime rates following a gun restriction law. This spike tends to last on average about a decade before falling back down to almost pre-ban levels but usually never fully recovering.

I provide two attached examples as reference, i can provide more from additional countries if youd like.

@snow

@freemo @snow When looking up your data, i get to this quote. (source: crimeresearch.org/2016/04/murd).

So, it seems to me, and correct me if i'm wrong. We are really only talking about countries that allowed for citizens to have firearms and were then at some point banned. This did not result in a lowering of homicides but after a peak it fell down to almost pre-ban levels. This still does not say that a ban doesn't help, it is just that after a ban it is still easy to keep / get a firearm.

@ff0000 @snow Can you show data for countries that always had firearm bands, then made them legal, and the effect that had on homicide and violent crime rates?

The fact is, yea we can speculate all we want to try to justify our personal biases but all the data suggests your bias is wrong and unless you have **better** data to support your opinion then its a weak argument.

@freemo @snow No i meant countries that never (in modern times) had legal firearms compared to countries that had them and then banned them.

The data might show that in didn't really decrease homicides, but it also doesn't say if those homicides were still by firearms or that they shifted to other means.

And maybe my bias is wrong if you look at the data, but i rather live in a country where it is very hard to get a weapon compared to the USA.

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@ff0000

Its really a moot point. It takes almost no skill to make a firearm from scratch in modern times. One guy on youtube built a hand fun by welding together a few parts from a matress frame. You can literally download blueprints for fully automatic guns that can be 3d printed in a day, designs for semi-automatics can even be made in hardnened plastic on a cheap 3d printer.

So the argument that if they never had guns there would be no access to guns is itself fundementally flawed in the modern era. Add on top of that that many guns are imported illegally from over seas so your argument needs to get even more absurd and say that its only going to be truly effective if the entire world makes guns illegal and then all guns stop existing. Which simply isnt going to be the case.

@snow

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