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Man the democratic primaries are such a shit show. I am so desperate to find someone other than trump to vote for... give me one decent option people. If Greg wins id probably vote for him, though I'm not a big fan, but he probably wont win and if its one of the evil three (warren, biden, bernie) not a chance in hell ill vote DNC....

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@freemo
Do you believe the two party system would ever get away from the elite's control?

@Jordi The two party system is a huge part of the problem. But I'm not sure I blame that on the elite (though they are part of it).. its the thinking and behavior of the general public who is to blame. They can vote for who they want

@freemo
That is what the mass media are for. Owned by the elite.
Manufacturing consent.
"...Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky show that, contrary to the usual image of the news media as cantankerous, obstinate, and ubiquitous in their search for truth and defense of justice, in their actual practice they defend the economic, social, and political agendas of the privileged groups that dominate domestic society, the state, and the global order."

@Jordi I'm aware of the book, and I also dont doubt the media's intention is to sway people to one agenda or another... but my point stands, the fault for letting themselves be manipulated is that of the people. They had a vote, they had the chance and ability to do the research. They didnt, they decided to believe obvious bullshit. That is their fault, no one elses.

@freemo
You think the market place has done right by education? Has education on your country improved or gotten worse over the last half century?
Is student debt a hurdle for higher education or a good think?
Yes, people should take some responsibility. I just think the system is set so the public reminds illiterate.

@Jordi The market is set by those same illiterate people. No i dont think education is in a healthy or effective state right now.

The people in all their stupidity, however, still get the system they vote for. They could be voting for people and a system which helps them get out of ignorance, but they dont.

@freemo
I wish somebody voted for Nader, but the two party system does not permit any kind of competition.
Do you think the dems cheated Bernie out of the nomination four years ago? I do.

@Jordi Except there is no "two party system".. no rules in the system in the USA that makes it a two party system. That effect is caused entirely by the general public's flawed logic (that voting for an unpopular choice is the same as throwing away your vote).

Yes I think bernie was "cheated" by the DNC. But more specifically that the Superdelegate system that the DNC employs is undemocratic and unfair.

@freemo
Again, I agree partially. I would go back to the Supreme Court rule that corporations are people and its implications for the electoral system.
The amount of money needed to rise to compete with the undemocratic parties prevents anyone without the support of the economic elites to realistically run.
npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/w
npr.org/templates/story/story.

@Jordi Well corporations are entities according ot the supreme court, not people. Meaning they do have some rights that people would have, but they lack some as well. For example a corporation does not have the right to vote. I think thats overall a good ruling.

As for the amount of money it takes to compete, again that is a failing of the people. The fact that people are swayed by perceived popularity and advertisements is the only reason money gives you an edge at all. If they werent then money would be irrelevant and you wouldnt need any money to win. So again the fault in that seems to lie with the people, not the elite.

@freemo
I wish I have more time today to continue the conversation.

"Corporate campaign contributions, which largely determine who gets elected, are viewed by the courts as protected forms of free speech under the First Amendment. Corporate lobbying, which determines most of our legislation, is interpreted as the peopleโ€™s right to petition the government. Corporations are legally treated as persons except when they carry out fraud and other crimes;"
commondreams.org/views/2017/08

@freemo
" the heads of corporations routinely avoid being charged and going to prison by paying fines, usually symbolic and pulled from corporate accounts, while not being forced to admit wrongdoing. And corporations have rewritten the law to orchestrate a massive tax boycott."
commondreams.org/views/2017/08
The Corruption of the Law
by
Chris Hedges

@Jordi Very true, which is why we should be electing people who ensure coprorations are held accountable to the same extent as individuals. It is certainly a pattern that should end.

We dont disagree on many of the issues, only who is to blame for it.

The elite want you to think the elite is to blame, because if you think that then you are powerless since it isnt your own actions giving them power.

Recognizing WE are to blame, and not the elite is the very thing the elite doesnt want.

@Jordi Yes I agree with the fact that those are and should be rights of corporations.

Don't get me wrong lobbying should be stopped, but only in the sense that if a politician is shown to be influenced by money then either if it is a corrupt bribe then there should be legal action against the politician but if it is simply normal lobbying (donations on the condition of what a company may gain) then the consequence should be the people not voting for that politician, not by taking away basic rights.

@freemo
The Obama non prosecution of wall street for the housing financial debacle and the rescue for - I say trillions of dollars- billions of the same financial institutions too big to fail constitute, in my opinion, the most brazen example of bipartisan corruption.

@Jordi Fair criticism. And i blame the people for that for electing someone with a track record that would suggest this behavior would be expected of him.

@freemo
In a local poll for parliamentary.

I won't to both big parties in the US if I can. So I don't know you're confused about what, just don't vote.

@Jordi

@freemo

gp.org/2020

There are always has the third option.

I don't give political votes anyway.

@freemo Why don't you like any of the Democratic candidates tho? Tulsi's cool. Sanders is sincere and genuine.

@realcaseyrollins I never said I dont like **any** of the. Just not the top "evil three"... Tulsi I would vote for over trump, but tulsi doesnt stand a chance in hell so she isnt even a consideration (if im proven wrong it will be a happy suprise).

As for sanders I used to be a Bernie fan last election due to him seeming to have integrity and to do what is right despite the fact that I thought his policies would be financially devistating. The second I saw he was a pawn for the democratic party, he lost his integrity the day he supported hillary. So I simply cant support him anymore.

But yea Both Tulsi and Greg would get my vote above Trump in a heartbeat. Almost any candidate outside of the evil three would.

@freemo actually I'd rather vote for an empty basket full of crap, than having Trump only one second longer.

@emden09 Understandable, if we had a empty basket full of crap I too would be more willing to vote for it than Trump, or any of the DNC candidates for that matter. At least after the fact that I resolve the confusion around how a basket can be both empty and full of crap at the same time :)

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