@freemo I use to side heavily with this. I wrote this years ago:

https://battlepenguin.com/philosophy/security/police/

a while back I started watching Donut Operator (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwkm_Wcyh0pc7UUmZZfL-6w/videos) and .. Jesus some of these people are dumb. Sure some people are victims of brutality but there are a lot of people like this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gfjNcNNPns

Huge BLM protest for a guy who, from the video, obviously wanted to die by cop. The cop did everything to try and not shoot the guy. Another example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G72A5QXlD5A

@djsumdog I dont think anecdotal evidence will really go that far as we can find extreames on either end.

With that said I know I have been abused by police more times than I can count growing up. So I know well enough they cant be trusted from expiernce.

@freemo I'm just saying, wait for the evidence to come out and the footage. There are plenty of cases where BLM took up a cause for someone, and then all the evidence that comes out later shows they were a fuckup with a weapon who won stupid prize.

Validate who you're defending before you start defending them.

The deeper underlying issue comes from poverty and crime; which needs to be dealt with when people are kids, long before police encounters.

@freemo Don't get me wrong, a lot of cops shoot innocent people and they should be held accountable, but not ever person who is black, who is shot, is undeserving. A lot of criminals are really dumb and do dumb things. We must be careful to balance things, and people need to see all the evidence. Body cams are really embraced by police because they can show some of the complexities in these situations.

Cameras from the public help too, like in this clear execution:

https://twitter.com/FreeRangeCritic/status/1233536447749201921

@djsumdog For starters to me this has little to do with being black.. black rights in all thsi is an issue but its the lesser issue (its just blacks tend to get more national attention when they are shot so its an easier list to compile).

In reality this is an issue of police abuse of power and an issue we all face regardless of color.

I agree not all people who are shot are innocent, in fact I'd even say the majority were probably guilty. but the point is a **hell** of a lot of innocent people are getting shot and even more relevant is the fact that even when there is plenty of evidence the cop still gets off scott free most of the time.

@freemo Yea, I agree cops should be held to higher standards and many are let off when they shouldn't be. As far as % guilty/innocent .. those are difficult metrics to really measure; and departments will try to cover up things/cover their people for sure. Cameras make a big difference for sure too.

I'm just saying it a really complex situation, with a lot of moving parts, and people shouldn't rush to judgement.

@djsumdog fair, well we should never rush to judgement..

All I know is a good cop, based on my personal dealings, is a lot more rare than a bad one.

@freemo Point of order though, while any such case is tragic and shouldn’t happen, I’m not sure it’s remotely fair to say that it’s “the norm” in the US. That strongly implies that it is very common and possibly, but not required, even accepted. The second certainly isn’t the case, even if the courts have generally failed us in this regard for various messed up reasons, and the second doesn’t appear to be the case either. While this list is, no doubt, incomplete, if we accept it as mostly complete it numbers just 67. Which is definitely 67 too many. However, it covers a period of 11 years resulting in around 6 per year. Again, still far too many. Yet, out of probably tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of “police encounters” 67 (double it for sake of argument) or even 134 is bad, but hardly “the norm”

All that said, reforms are unquestionably needed and “this sucks” doesn’t cover it. Scale and perspective both matter though and should be maintained

@wolfie Fair... It happens a lot, way way too much.. but to say that most people murdered by cops were non-violent.. that may be a stretch.. Though then again, I wouldnt be surprised if more people killed by cops were non-violent than violent I really cant be sure, that may not be true.

@freemo Agreed, definitely way more than it should and the police unquestionably get away with things that regular people would never be allowed to get away with. On the subject of waiting for the facts to come in, that just seems generally a good idea

@wolfie Well yes. Despite my obvious prejudice against police I'd say being impartial in individual cases at least is very important.

It would be ashame that if a good-guy cop, however rare, was involved in an incident and got attacked for it. That would ultimately discourage good cops.

@freemo Agreed

@wolfie @freemo I live in the suburbs of Minneapolis. I can't speak to most of your list, but Floyd and Castillo are ours.

I believe this much: if you're shot by cops in the street, you have been denied your right to a fair trial. Unlike questions as to whether the goverment can claim powers not mentioned in the constitution, or various interpretations of their intent, the constitution and bill of rights are pretty clear on this.

At the midterm elections, we voted in a sheriff (Hutchinson) whose platform touted de-escalation. That said, George Floyd died in Minneapolis proper, so the case belongs to the Minneapolis police. The mayor is screaming, so that's something.

@wolfie @freemo I didn't go to the protests. I'm told that they began peacefully. I saw some FB posts saying that the National Guard was called and the police were using lethal force. Don't know if that's true or not. Heard from folk who live a block from the protests that there was chaos and gunshots till 5am. Also, an Autozone was burnt down, the grocery store is burnt but standing, and I believe the Target got looted.

@Lwasserman @freemo From what I read/saw elsewhere, there were two ‘protests’. One a legit peaceful one and then.. yeah, the other one

@wolfie @freemo People are angry, frustrated, scared. I don't blame them. With that much emotion going on, keeping control of the situation must have been like trying to bottle the ocean. I just hope that something good comes of it.

@Lwasserman @freemo Sure, and they have a right to be angry. Thing is, when one starts burning down ones own town and probably more importantly, looting everything in sight, it starts looking a whole lot less like “people protesting an injustice” and way more like “thugs and criminals taking advantage of the situation.”

Sad thing is a perfectly justified and reasoned protest gets tarnished and harmed

@wolfie @freemo There's a video showing the guy smashing the Autozone windows, just after which, the smoke bombs start falling. Some folks on my feed are saying that the one who broke the windows, subsequently assaulted a woman, then ran into the police station. That part is not in the scope of the video.

Can I post the link to the video? It's on Twitter, and I'm not sure if that's an isdue here?

@Lwasserman @freemo No issue I’m aware of haha

@wolfie @freemo FYI
https://mobile.twitter.com/MistyGComics/status/1265975001443860480?s=20
Video of the protests in Minneapolis on Lake St., queued up to the part where the store windows were broken. Incidentally, not my twitter account.

@wolfie @freemo My first post on the protests is everything I actually know, second-hand. I figure that it's good to write down whatever information you have, so that it's recorded somewhere.

@Lwasserman @freemo Sure, makes sense :)

@wolfie @freemo The rest is just my belief.