@benk That makes no sense since a free market doesn't exist the corporations couldnt have been made there and we cant blame it. We can only blame the lobbyists who ensured the market wasnt free and whom, in turn, gave their corporations their unfair advantage.

@freemo It doesn't work that way; first there is the market, then a business is born from the market and grows powerful enough to corrupt the state. You're right monopolies make the market less free, but that's just the fate of all markets, to be monopolized. A free market economy is not a sustainable one because it's always temporary.

@benk yes first there was a market, a market that wasn't free, then there were companies born from that market that leveraged the lack of freedom int he market to gain power, then those companies used that power to secure their place and monopolies in the market and ensure they couldn't loose it, making the market less free over time.

@freemo So basically what you're saying is that a free market by definition cannot exist, since the natural state where it all beings is where there isn't one and won't be one in the future either.

@benk Nope not saying that at all, please dont mince my words.

I am saying a free market has not existed, not that it can not exist.

@freemo I would say based on your model it can't, since the corporations already corrupted the state to ensure that the market that never was free remains unfree.

@benk The fact that corperations have corrupted the free market to make it less free in no way implies it cant. It just means the government needs to be of such a nature (either by design or through the choice of the people in who they elect) whereby it does not make laws that prevent a free market and do not cave to monopolies.

Simply voting for good people would in and of itself fix the problem, but people dont tend to do that.

@freemo I agree with the idea, that government intervention in the market can play that positive role of keeping it from going wrong. Easier said than done, but a state's gotta do it.

@benk well yes, easier said than done for sure. I dont actually expect a free market anytime soon given the mentalities and voting habits of the general public.

@benk @freemo

Of course the market it to blame; it's what made the corporations. It's where they were created, got their money, and were ingrained them with motivation to corrupt the state.

incorporation is a legal fiction that cannot exist without the state to enforce it. There would be no corporate entities under a free market.

The monopolies corporations enjoy are granted to them by the state as well, whether it is a geographic monopoly, a service offering monopoly, or intellectual monopoly. None of these would exist without the state.

@VictorVenema It means I recognize this as fact

Thought there isnt much distinction. While there are some set of facts that make up the universe deciding what things fall into that category and what doesnt is always a matter of your own opinion when evaluating the evidence you have seen. In my case I am able to recognize this as one of those facts, others may not think that is correct.

@freemo I recognize it as a story without nuance with a true core that corporations have much to much influence in American politics.

One reason they have so much influence is a flood of "free market" propaganda, while that is something that does not exist. In an interdependent world your freedom is always limited by the freedom of others. We can at best maximize freedom.

@VictorVenema It is hardly about america, it is true in most countries. In fact places with the least free markets have some of the worst sorts of personal and economic hardships.

@freemo In Somalia you have hardly any government meddling in the free markets. Not doing so well.

There are big differences between countries how well your story without nuance fits to reality. Try to understand Dutch politics, it is very different from US politics.

Something which is true everywhere: there are no free markets. There are only places where the ruling class and corporations may feel like they are in a free market as they are free to destroy other people's freedoms.

@VictorVenema We call that cherry picking, thats not how we find truth.