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I am a pretty tolerant person of personal morality... but dude, blocking people solely for being trans, and announcing it, and when you are the one who initiated contact (I suspect) of all things. Dude, no, just no, that is disgusting of you.
I am not saying you have to interact with any group of people. But to consciously and intentionally hate all trans people and worse yet admit it like its somehow a morally acceptable stance that you arent ashamed of... no... just no
I know weve been friends on the fediverse to one degree or another for a while, but this is the first time I'm hearing say such things and I cant express just how much respect I lost for you hearing that.
Its not about if the person cares or not. Its about the fact that it was wrong, that your prejudice is wrong, that you know it is wrong and still did it.
You are welcome to try to explain your thinking, and my hope would be maybe you learn something and change that thinking along the way as part of that discussion.
But I can assure you there is no logic you could sell me where I will find conscious hate and segregation of all transpeople as an acceptable moral stance.
I appreciate that you seem to have changed your mind on transpeople then. A good first step, other than treating them respectful in the future, would be to apologize to @Luna I'd say.
Spinster is an instance devoted to hating trans people... thats a pretty weak excuse especially considering it was **after** the fact. That said, what evidence was provided from that very obviously bias anti-trans source?
Nope. spinster is the only server QOTO silences that has over 10 users because they spent several days engaging in harassment of our users (including myself) that included creating multiple accounts to evade blocks when their harassment were blocked. As such it has been the only server of more than a dozen people we have ever needed to silence and remains silenced to this day.
For starters, the reason I dont engage with what they said is because i cant see what they said, and frankly given that non-sense explanation im kinda glad I cant hear them.
Jar being one of your friends doesnt make their argument any more compelling. I am not telling you who you can be friends with. I'm not even telling you what to think or what morals to have. I am telling you that your actions are a disgrace and cause me to loose a great deal of respect for you.
Now you said you were wrong, if you believe that and demonstrate that moving forward I have no problem saying you can regain my respect. No one is perfect and learning and growing will always regain my respect. But as we stand right now I am quite disgusted by what I see.
Jar said: It’s ok to engage with my opinions and his opinions, but it’s unlikely that he will agree with me. He leans left I think, so do I. I focus on women’s rights, he does not. But we probably have similar beliefs. Sometimes small conflicts within one side divide people more effectively than if they were on opposite sides.
I cant speak to if Luna agrees with me in other areas, it very well could be the case. I'm not sure how relevant it is. Keep in mind im not engaging with luna simply because the server is silenced due to aforementioned reasons. Otherwise I would have no objection to talk it out with her.
That say women's rights, along with male rights, generally anti-sexism, is a very important priority for me. So to claim I dont care about women's rights is false. What is clear, however, is that she has very different opinions about women's rights or sexism in general than me.
Jar said: I’m jars not luna.
I didn’t say he was sexist, just that my main focus is on women’s rights. Other people on the left may focus on things like the environment or going against imperialism.
If he thinks I’m bigoted, I understand. I used to be a trans rights supporter who would always correct people’s pronoun useage and ask them to be kind. My beliefs changed from both experience and newthoughtcrime.com helping me feel ok with asking questions again. However, I don’t wish trans people ill. But if there are predatory trans people, especially towards minority sexual orientations, I will not excuse it. I’m sorry that he was harassed though.
Sorry luna was a typo/brain fart. Yes I meant Jar.
I can understand that Jar's perspective on women's right is a focus for her. For me women's rights are one among several things that matter to me and I dont generally prioritize one above another. The priorities of issues for her or me is not a big issue for me either way.
Her views on trans people are bigoted yes. Whether she treates them with hate or not I havent seen (in your case jojo that was the case) but based on her bigoted views I would expect her to likely treat them hatefully. That said I have not witnessed her directly interacting with a transperson so I can only speculate. But having bigoted views is enough for me to draw an opinion that is concerning, even if other facts she may not be such a horrible person.
I certainly dont mind her "asking questions", the concerning part seems to be the answers she came up with. Not wishing ill on trans people is a start. There are degrees to both hate and bigotry, but even moderate bigotry is quite appalling on its own.
As for her comments on "predatory" i suspect she has very different views on what constitutes predatory, but maybe not. Regardless predatory women, men, trans, CIS, whatever is not acceptable. I really see no need to qualify a persons gender when talking about how predatory anything is bad... not entierly sure how someone can be predatory to someones orientation though, not even sure what that means.
Finally, I do appreciate the apology for the harassment and thank you for saying so. As far as I know Jar wasnt involved in that so I do not hold that against her in and of itself. Even the server I'd be happy to unsilence at the instance level should the admin of the server make a statement that the harassment was out of line and would not happen again int he future. But since she condoned it at the time the instance wide silence has regrettably needed to remain in force.
Jar said: “I certainly dont mind her "asking questions", the concerning part seems to be the answers she came up with.”
Sometimes, the answers to the questions are sadly not the answers you wanted or expected.
It shatters the world.
“There are degrees to both hate and bigotry, but even moderate bigotry is quite appalling on its own.”
Words aren’t violence.
"Sometimes, the answers to the questions are sadly not the answers you wanted or expected."
This is true, and yet other times the answers are just plain bigoted and wrong. In this case I would say that is more apt a description.
"Words aren’t violence."
At no point in the conversation did I equate words to violence, nor is the quote she responded to in any way referencing violence. I very clearly spoke about hate and bigotry, not violence.
Jar said: “At no point in the conversation did I equate words to violence, nor is the quote she responded to in any way referencing violence.”
That’s fair.
“the answers are just plain bigoted and wrong.”
Maybe.
In my opinion, identifying as another group of people, specifically, an oppressed group is not a good thing to do. That’s not a human right.
none of what I said requires being trans to be a human right to be true. What is, or at least should be, a human right is bodily autonomy. A person can surgically alter their genitalia in any way they please and put whatever they want in their body.
You are perfectly fine in thinking undergoing transition is not a good personal choice to make.. What you dont have a right to do is dictate for others what is or is not the best choice for their own body. More over you absolutely have no right to hate them for a choice they make with their own body.
If all you did was say in a post "I dont think sexual transition is a healthy life choice for people to make" .. fine I'd have given you a pass. But that is not what you said or did. You literally excluded a person and said you felt hate simply because they were trans. Now your doing everything you can to justify it as well by mostly making irrelevant points. Hate is hate, you were wrong, period. It barely matters that they were trans other than the fact that being trans, changing their own body, is their right to do, its their body.
The issue is not bodily autonomy.
The issue is the idea that you can make those alterations and then identify as a member of another group of people, an oppressed group and expect that oppressed group to be ok with it. If they don’t fully support it then they are bigots, right?
In order to support the transgender movement, you have to believe either:
1. Women are not oppressed
2. It’s ok to identify as a member of an oppressed group of people.
That is the meaning behind the phrase “trans women are women.”
“Now your doing everything you can to justify it as well by mostly making irrelevant points.”
That you are calling this “irrelevant” is why I have trouble trusting other people on the left.
Identifying as a woman while being born male is a bigoted action against the female sex, who experience oppression worldwide. But of course, we are hateful for pointing this out.
"The issue is not bodily autonomy.
The issue is the idea that you can make those alterations and then identify as a member of another group of people, an oppressed group and expect that oppressed group to be ok with it. If they don’t fully support it then they are bigots, right?"
All of that implies you had a conversation with Luna and they expressed their views at all... you didnt. So no you dont get to make that defense. The only thing you knew is they were trans (that they either had hormone therapy, genital surgery, etc). They said absolutely nothing about their view and you had no interaction with Luna other than to be a bigoted asshole. No you dont get to use the excuse they called you a bigot for any reason, literally the only interaction you had was to actually **be** a bigot.
Trans gender is not a "movement"... it is an action people take on their own body. Beyond that the opinion of any individual trans person as to what rights they should have or to what extent they deserve the privileges of a woman is entirely different from person to person.
Luna never uttered the phrase "trans women are women", not that I would fault her if she did, but again your desperately working backwards to justify your disgusting bigotry on points that are pretty weak to begin with rather than trying to grow the hell up and admit you were wrong (which apparently at one point you did but now you are back peddling).
Yes I am calling it irrelevant because your making generalizations and assumptions and none of this in any way applies to an iota of interaction you had with Luna. So I really dont give a crap about this noise. What matters is you were an asshole to someone because of what they did with their own body, period, everything else you said never took place with Luna and you are assuming it based on your interactions with some nebulous trans people you once interacted with as if they are all one person with the same ideas. Like I said even then I'd side with trans people in that debate but it is a tangent in this case.
You want to get into general trans issues as a tangent such as identifying as a female or not, we can do that, separately, thats fine. But for this particular incident no, none of this applies. You acted in a disgusting way and you cant just talk your way out of it. You own up and be a man and learn from it and correct your behavior, or dont, those are your options.
Jar said: I saw Luna’s account with my own eyes.
“..justify your disgusting bigotry on points that are pretty weak to begin with rather than trying to grow the hell up and admit you were wrong (which apparently at one point you did but now you are back peddling).”
If my points are wrong, why are you simply attacking me instead of addressing them.
1. Are women oppressed? Are homosexual women oppressed?
2. Is it ok to identify as a member of an oppressed group that you are not part of?
It’s not wrong for me to disagree or be offended when a member of an oppressive group appropriates the group it oppresses. And now you are acting as tone police for how I react, when really I have been polite. It’s not hateful or bigoted at all to point out that identifying as transgender is just as bad as identifying as trans (any other oppressed group) and reacting accordingly.
Your last reply was addressed to you, not Jar, as you said it yourself and didnt indicate it was from jar. It seems now your last reply was in fact a copy and paste from Jar you just didnt say it.
The fact is, jar's opinion are one thing, I dont want to continue arguing with jar through copy and paste so they will have to use an alt account or we will just have to drop it for technical reasons.
Now if **you** want to discuss your actions jojoj, we can.
Jar is welcome to contact me from an account I can talk to Jar directly on. Otherwise I wont discuss through proxy it is too confusing.
and I am not talking about bringing you into the conversation with jar, i am talking about the conversations **we** started (and jar is a tangent conversations) about your hate, bigotry an disgusting behavior. If you want to continue being a horrible person go for it, you want to discuss it, go for it. Up to you. Has nothing to do with jar though.
I wouldnt go that far. You acted, in that post as a horrible person. You have not apologized to luna or in any way shown you were sorry, that means you continue to be a horrible person. I'm sure there are other ways in which you are good person. That does not negate the fact that you, in this instance, are acting deplorably.
Hey @p, does my "apparently horrible behavior" violate the terms of service on your instance? Please leave me alone about this issue, to be honest, I think I haven't did anything wrong. It's just a internet, that person who have just blocked me. Lol, even the trans person hasn't responded to the post yet, I think he muted it.
I never said you violated anything on your instance and you know damn well you didnt. P is ok with literal nazis and he is also very clearly ok with literal anti-trans people. You are trying to get daddy involved.
I already told you I have no problem dropping the issue when you mentioned it last post, making it clear that it has destroyed complete the positive view I had of you. So move along, I can see you arent a person I want to have interaction with anyway at this point.
As for luna (the trans person) they contacted me in DM.
Bye, i think we are done here. Hope daddy P strokes your delicate ego as usual.
@Jojothegoodperson So now you do want to have the conversation or not? There are a few things I dont tolerate, sexism, and racism are 2 of them
Do you want to have this conversation or not, make up your mind.
@Jojothegoodperson If you made a post directed at me and I didnt respond then I didnt see it most likely. I have not intentionally ignored a thing you said.
I have engaged you the entire time until you started throwing a fit that I was "still talking to you" and tagged P and jars just so people would come to your defence, the same shitty tactic P does when he gets called out, he calls in his little fanboy army to dog pile someone rather than man the fuck up.
@Jojothegoodperson P doesnt have a god damn thing to do with this discussion, I will not tag that piece of shit nor do I give a rats ass what he thinks. You want to go complain to daddy so someone will stroke your ego do it on your own time.
Now when you said you wanted to end the conversation I said ok, I then asked you 2 more times if you wanted to continue as you continued... Either fuck off, or have a conversation (I actually almost forgave what you did when you apologized but then you just backpeddled)... either way I'm not gonna play that fucking game.
I am sure you will cry harassment now because you said you wanted to end the conversation, then kept tagging me over and over again and now that i responded its harassment...
Serious, either fuck off, or have an adult conversation. Otherwise peace out dude.
> and tagged P and jars just so people would come to your defence, the same shitty tactic P does
Show me *one* instance of me doing this. *One*. You're making shit up, as usual.
(I have on occasion turned a thread into a hellthread by adding some enthusiastic participants, but only when that would improve the thread significantly, and also only after asking to get off the ride several times.)
