I want to thank everyone for the ovwhelming support for our cause, you guys mean a lot.

I have been tthinking a lot lately and thing I have a social solution to this problem. It is something I am going to start doing a writeup on ttoday. I think it will not just thelp QOTO but in general address the unwantant fracturing of the fediverse.

I will share the dettails once my writeup is complete but if anyone is intterested in hearing more or potentially help being a part of it, please reply here or reach out to me in DM.

@freemo Unwanted? By whom? You, qoto.org, someone else? There's certainly no consensus to whether the formation of factions is unwanted.

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@dusnm Unwanted by many.. by my judgement the majority in fact, at least based on how im seeing the conversation go.

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@freemo The software (at least Mastodon) is specifically designed to make defederation one of the most useful options in content moderation. How else would we deal with malicious actors? This will inevitably lead to formation of factions as it indeed does. I'd argue it's part of our nature as people, a natural extension of our right for self-determination. To be clear, I have no qualms with people who decide not to use this, it's as much a right to not use it as it is to do.

@dusnm My solution is **not** to convince anyone not to use defederation.. so your making a lot of assumptions about my intent here.

You might want to ask yourself, why do yo already find yourself disagreeing with me when I havent even made my proposal public yet?

@freemo I'm not specifically disagreeing with you. I'm thinking about the problem as well and deciding whether I think it's a problem.

You said the fracturing of the fediverse is unwanted. Suppose it is. The main way fracturing happens is through the use of defederation. My question is not how would we address this, it's whether we need to address it.

@dusnm

I tend to agree... Is there really a problem?

If "most think that defederation is not wanted", doesn't that mean that most are not defederated by definition?

And those who wants to be outside that larger cluster have all their rights to do so...

Maybe I am missing something important here.

@freemo

@niclas

Some fracturing is fine... The issue here is two fold.. 1) the fracturing is happening bassed off gossip and not informed facts 2) people are threatening to defederate with anyone who doesnt defederate from the same people they do. This has a viral effect that could be quite harmful.

@dusnm

@freemo

Right, but doesn't that mean that there will be one larger cluster of people who don't defederate and numerous islands of people who are in their respective preferred "safe space". Isn't that Ok?

I want the bazaar and the pub, but you might want your living room.

Just curious.

@dusnm

@niclas

no because it doesnt create clean little islands, sadly.. it creates fractured threads where everyone is talking and you cant see half the messages, and the messages you cant see are different than what someone else can see. It drives people to ultimately smaller and smaller islands.

The problem lies int he viral nature of the defederating... the current peer pressure is such that every server demands every other server block the same people they do, meanwhile each server has a different block list. When this plays out to completion everyone is forced into small niche islands and there is no fediverse, if you try to participate in a larger fediverse you are kicked out of even your small island, so no fediverse can exist by that point... it is headed there fast.

@dusnm

@freemo

To me it sounds like you are making the assumption that most admins want go down this path, but you started with what most of us (admins) don't want. I fail to see how both can be true at the same time.

Do you mean that admins who are anti-defederation will fold to user pressure? Rather than trust the "don't want those users anyway" attitude?

@dusnm

@freemo

Maybe we have just bred a couple of generations of whiners, who are unable to handle inconvenience, debate and basic philosophy.

I am sure you know the
Hard Times -> Good Men -> Good Times -> Weak Men -> Hard Times.

@dusnm

@freemo @niclas I don’t believe in weakness. I think everyone is fighting their own battle. You mentioned philosophy. Socrates would have had something to say along the lines of what you said. He thought the new generations were spoiled and could never inherit the world. I think that’s fallacious for the simple reason history proved it wrong. Every generation thinks they got it all figured out.

@niclas

I am suggesting that admins who are somewhat neutral on defederation, will do it when needed, but wont go crazy defederating either, they will and do easily cave to peer pressure and defederate from instances they otherwise dont want tto simply to prevent being blocked themselves.

@dusnm

@freemo

Ah! So the "I was just following orders, to avoid being punished."-mentality.

Yeah, you might be right. But it also means that "most admins are ok with defederation" and by taking that stance, they assign themselves into a life in ever smaller islands (as you said).

Self-inflicted, or suicide, by "playing it safe".

@dusnm

@niclas

Most admins are ok with defederation from instances who deserve it in their mind. Most admins are reasonable in who they think deserves it (when not under peer pressure). Most admins seem to block instances with rampant harassment. While we dont defederate here I am not advocating everyone needs to be anti-defederation, just be reasonable and informed about it.

@dusnm

ultimately-twisted intersectionality leading to unitary sets? who'd have thunk? :-/

@dusnm @freemo

As to the last sentence of your statement, lets focus on legal status of such phrase.

The short answer is: nope, nit always and not anywhere.

More verbosely, at least in my and some european countries, it is illegal for a service provider to decline or cancel providing a service , unless user is carrying out with it an illegal activity. And defederation based on made up hAIDS-peach rules is this illegal. Double so AS it violates users freedom of speech.

@dusnm @freemo
"The software (at least Mastodon) is specifically designed to make defederation one of the most useful options in content moderation. "
An interesting claim, i do not know enough to confirm or deny it.

Please educate me: at what percentage of bad actors should an instance be defederated to moderate away the bad content in your opinion and why?

@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo If you're going to use such disingenuous phrasing, why should I bother responding? I don't claim to have all the answers, neither did I sign up to educate anyone. I believe we're all adults, there's no need for pointless squabble.

Now to answer your question. As usual, it depends. There's no exact metric here. If your users are expressing concerns you try to evaluate their concerns and act accordingly.

@dusnm @freemo
I am sorry if my phrasing offended you, that was not my intent.
My intent was to hold back and not claim anything that i cannot argue. I wantet to be clear that i was asking for your opinion.

If i understand your answer correctly, you think that an instance admin should use defederation to the best of their own instances users interests?

Can you confirm this interpretation? I hope so, because i like the idea very much.

@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo I'm not offended, don't worry about it, I'm just tired of people arguing in bad faith, but I see you're probably just used to speaking in a certain manner. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

That said, yes, that's pretty much the gist of my argument here.

@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo Content moderation is a very difficult task. It requires thought, nuance and commitment, a lot of it. You have obvious trolls, people arguing in bad faith, doxxers, harassers and all sorts of other toxic patterns and behaviors. It's sometimes necessary to isolate your community from such people, especially if your community is home to a lot of marginalized individuals that get a great deal of targeted harassment.

@dusnm @freemo Yes, as far as my limited knowledge allows me, i agree.
And i think @freemo thinks exactly the same - i came too late to witness it, but as i heard there was some discussion with LGBTQ+ members about what would be best for them and the result was implemented.

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